Rachel Lindsay and Callie Curry begin today’s Morally Corrupt with a discussion about the Bravo news of the week (1:37) before giving their thoughts on Season 2, Episode 3 of Summer House: Martha’s Vineyard (11:18), as well as Season 8, Episode 8 of Summer House (26:52). Then Rachel is joined by Jodi Walker to recap Season 1, Episode 4 of The Valley (43:49) and Season 11, Episode 11 of Vanderpump Rules (1:07:27).
Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan to run through the 10 most anticipated movies from this week’s CinemaCon, which Sean attended (1:00). Then, they have a long—and, at times, combative—discussion about Alex Garland’s big-budget A24 release, Civil War (44:00), delving into the film’s politics (or lack thereof), point of view, cinematic style, and more. Finally, Sean is joined by Garland to answer questions regarding some of those very things and where he sees this in the arc of his career, as well as discuss whether he will take a step back from filmmaking (1:50:00).
Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Chris Ryan and Alex Garland Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner
All wars are fought twice The first time on the battlefield the second time in memory
These three lines of text come from a quote in Nothing Ever Dies: Vietnam and the Memory of War, written by Vietnamese American author Viet Thanh Nguyen. This idea of a twice-fought conflict serves as the basis for the nonfiction book, which examines war, memory, and identity. Nguyen focuses on the Vietnam War—or the American War, as he notes that others call it—as a model in which to examine the problems that stem from how we remember war, the challenges and contradictions in how these stories are told, and who gets to tell them. The three lines of text are projected on-screen in the opening moments of the HBO adaptation of Nguyen’s Pulitzer Prize–winning novel, The Sympathizer, a story that explores these concepts through the recollections of a half-French, half-Vietnamese Communist spy during the waning days of the Vietnam War and in his new life as a refugee in Los Angeles.
The Sympathizer, which premieres on HBO on Sunday, follows our nameless protagonist—known only as the Captain (Hoa Xuande)—as he confesses his experiences as a North Vietnamese double agent from the confines of a reeducation camp somewhere in Vietnam. Like the Captain himself, the seven-episode miniseries contains many faces: It is at once a harrowing depiction of the loss of life in Vietnam, an immigrant story, an espionage thriller, and a biting satire of decades of Hollywood portrayals of a war that have almost always been positioned from an American point of view. As the Captain continues his espionage work in the U.S. even after the fall of Saigon, following the South Vietnamese General (Toan Le) to California to report back on his aspirations to one day reclaim their homeland, The Sympathizer widens its perspective of the war through the Captain’s blue-green eyes. The miniseries manages to capture much of the sharp wit of its source material in an adaptation that is often as funny as it is exhilarating, but its unevenness throughout the season dulls some of the finer edges of Nguyen’s masterful work in the process.
The A24 coproduction is led by showrunners Don McKellar and Park Chan-wook (Decision to Leave, Oldboy), the latter of whom helms the first three episodes before directors Fernando Meirelles (City of God, The Two Popes) and Marc Munden (Help, Utopia) finish off the remainder of the series. Park’s imprint is all over his three-episode block, with his distinct cinematic flair and particular brand of absurdist humor setting the tone for the show early and often. Some of the show’s funniest moments early on derive from the physical comedy of a drunken bar fight that occurs in the background of an urgent conversation, or the wide-angled portrayal of an assassination attempt gone awry. There’s a wonderful bit of interplay between Park’s and Nguyen’s works in this adaptation: Park’s twisted and spectacular Oldboy originally served as an influence for Nguyen’s novel—the author was inspired (and disturbed) by Park’s subversive revenge tale, released in 2003—and now the Korean filmmaker is one of the key creative visions bringing The Sympathizer to the screen.
Park is thus the natural fit to establish the pace of the miniseries; the Captain perfectly aligns with the type of protagonist he often likes to explore in his films. As the director toldThe New Yorker: “I am drawn to the character who acts on their resolve, but then, having arrived at their destination, finds that they have arrived at a completely different place than they had intended.”
That Park’s directorial absence is so pronounced in the back half of the season is less a criticism of his replacements than a product of a distinctive auteur handing over the reins to other filmmakers; some of the show’s most bizarre quirks fade away by the end of the series. However, one of Park’s ideas has an outsized presence across The Sympathizer’s duration, for better or worse: casting Robert Downey Jr. in four different roles.
Downey—covered in some combination of heavy makeup, prosthetics, and colored contacts (sometimes all at once)—plays a CIA operative, a college professor, a conservative politician, and an eccentric Hollywood director (sometimes all at once). Each figure serves as either a mentor or employer to the Captain at some point, with the protagonist’s wildly varied work experience taking him from the South Vietnamese secret police’s interrogation rooms to the Hollywood set of a movie that resembles Apocalypse Now. Downey’s characters are all white American men who together form one unified satire of the American imperialist systems of power. As clever of a conceit as this may be, and as entertaining as Downey’s various performances in The Sympathizer are, the Oscar-winning actor is also a distracting fixture whose scene chewing too often draws attention away from his acting partners and the story itself.
Downey, who serves as an executive producer on the series with his wife, Susan, is not the only starry name in the cast—just the only one whose roles seem to multiply as the season progresses. Sandra Oh, John Cho, and David Duchovny all appear in supporting roles; the latter two make hilarious cameos as actors in the episode that spoofs the Hollywood production. But it’s Xuande, in the leading role of the Captain, who is perhaps most deserving of praise. The little-known Australian Vietnamese actor, whose previous credits include ABC’s Ronny Chieng: International Student and the unfortunate live-action remake of Cowboy Bebop, is surrounded by many big names, but The Sympathizer features Xuande’s Captain in just about every scene, his narration frequently providing the transitions in between. Xuande manages to convey the complexities of the character like a veteran thespian, showcasing the Captain’s charisma and wide range of emotions while his dual life progressively takes a toll on him. As the war begins to move on from the violence of the battlefield to form the fresh scars of a living memory, the Captain struggles to weigh his shifting ideals and sense of morality against his conflicting loyalties.
The Sympathizer doesn’t reach the same heights as its Pulitzer Prize–winning source material, its ambitious appetite perhaps too large to be satiated over the course of just seven episodes. But the miniseries is still a worthy adaptation of a challenging text, injecting enough of its own voice and style to achieve one of the novel’s primary goals of evolving the conversation around the Vietnam War in mainstream media.
Nora and Nathan are here to break down the third album from Maggie Rogers, Don’t Forget Me. They talk about how the fact that the album was written over the course of five days impacted its sound (1:00), how she’s moved away from the electronic sounds of Heard It in a Past Life and toward the sounds of Linda Rondstadt and Sheryl Crow (32:05), and how her friendships play a major role on this record (48:01).
Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen
Matt is joined by IMAX CEO Rich Gelfond to discuss the complicated state of movie theaters and the growing importance of premium large-format screens like IMAX. Rich reveals just how much certain movies have benefitted from IMAX sales, which movies are getting the most IMAX screens this spring and summer, and what to do about the glut of empty multiplexes across the country. Matt finishes the show with an opening-weekend box office prediction for Alex Garland’s newest film, Civil War.
For a 20 percent discount on Matt’s Hollywood insider newsletter, What I’m Hearing …, click here.
The world has gone mad, and the boys are back to make sense of it all. Van, Charles, Jomi, and Steve break down their thoughts on the maddening trailer for Joker: Folie à Deux (09:13). Then they take a look at the fifth explosive episode of X-Men ’97 (33:29). That’s all before they dive into this week’s episode of Shogun (57:43).
Hosts: Charles Holmes, Van Lathan, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve Ahlman Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran
Let me describe a scenario. You’ve been looking forward to streaming the latest TV masterpiece everyone has been telling you to try. You finally find enough time to take in an hour-long episode and park yourself on the couch in front of the fancy 4K set in your living room. The screen gleams, you press play, and something looks a little … off. The top and bottom of the image seem sort of smeared.Are the edges of the frame out of focus? Did you screw something up in the settings? What’s happening here?
If any of this sounds familiar, don’t bother checking your warranty. As The Outer Limits used to say: There is nothing wrong with your television set. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. What you’re seeing is simply a hallmark of modern prestige TV. To paraphrase Norma Desmond, your screen is sharp. It’s the picture that got blurry. And that blur is by design. Welcome to TV’s era of the anamorphic lens.
Even if you somehow sidestepped every example of this trend until this year, you can’t ignore them now without suffering from FOMO. FX and Hulu’s Shogun is the most acclaimed show of 2024. It’s also one of the blurriest. And no, that’s not an accident. Like every other aspect of the meticulously plannedandproduced 10-episode miniseries, Shogun’s stylized visual language grew out of extensive consideration, conversation, and collaboration.
Early on, those three Cs involved cocreator and showrunner Justin Marks and the duo of director Jonathan van Tulleken and cinematographer Chris Ross, who would work on the first two episodes. When van Tulleken was pitching himself for the position of Shogun’s leadoff director, he put together a lookbook and mood reels that laid out his vision for the show. He took his cue from the scripts, which he says “had a texture … a strong visual voice.” On the page, Shogun “felt really bold and really like [it] had a strong point of view and a strong subjectivity.” Van Tulleken wanted to bring the same quality to the screen. And so, he says, “We started to settle on this idea of how to express this subjectivity, how to express [John] Blackthorne’s disorientation.”
While assembling the look book for Shogun, van Tulleken’s lodestars were movies that felt timeless and daring: The Godfather, Blade Runner, and, in particular, Apocalypse Now. Ross, who had teamed up with van Tulleken on previous projects dating back to Misfits, suggested several Asian influences—including Raise the Red Lantern and the work ofWong Kar-wai, Takashi Miike, and Yasujiro Ozu—as well as recent inspirations such as The Revenant and 2015’s Macbeth.
But both agree on the guiding light: Apocalypse Now, Ross says, was“a huge reference” for them. Francis Ford Coppola’s 1979 Godfather follow-up “has a point of view in its look and a point of view in its lens choice and in its framing, and it’s driven by story,” van Tulleken says, adding, “We really wanted to take some of that and create a world that was sort of intoxicating and also felt dangerous and sometimes disorienting.”
In applying that ethos to Shogun,van Tulleken and Ross adhered to the Japanese concept of wabi-sabi—essentially, that beauty and imperfection are inextricably linked and that one should seek to accept that tension. Shogun, van Tulleken says,is “a journey of acceptance,” particularly for the shipwrecked captive Blackthorne. “Everyone’s kind of a prisoner in the show, be it from culture, be it from their position in society, be it from politics, or literally a prisoner, in Blackthorne’s sense,” van Tulleken notes. The English sailor’s arc reflects “the acceptance of some of that and the acceptance of the things you can change and you can’t.”
Hence the evolution from the Blackthorne in Episode 4, who tramples on the moss in his house’s rock garden, to the Blackthorne at the end of Episode 5, who carefully smooths out the gravel surrounding a stone. Having heard Mariko’s message that “death can come for us at any moment,” and having learned the truth of that through an earthquake and the death of his gardener, he embraces the transience of beauty and life and learns to focus on the things he can control.
For the folks shooting Shogun, van Tulleken says, the challenge posed by wabi-sabi became “How do we take this very perfect thing in the digital cameras we use and also in these beautiful, austere sets and these incredible, rich costumes, and how do we break it so we’re not fetishizing it, we’re not turning it into a fantasy?”
Their answer: anamorphic lenses.
Anamorphiclenses were developed a century or so ago as a means of obtaining a wide-screen image from film and camera equipment with a non-wide-screen aspect ratio. (The lenses themselves horizontally squeeze the image, which is then stretched upon projection.) Compared to standard, spherical lenses, oval anamorphics enable a wider field of view, used in movie formats such as CinemaScope, which arose in the 1950s in response to the threat TV posed to the box office. Anamorphic lenses can capture the full sweep of stunning landscapes instead of lopping off a large part of the picture, but—for better or worse—in close-ups of characters, their shallow depth of field creates a stark contrast between the in-focus subject(s) at the center of the frame and the blurred background around them.
The anamorphic look came to be seen as “cinematic,” but the lenses fell out of favor in the 1990s thanks to the development of formats such as Super 35, which made up for some of the shortcomings of spherical lenses vis-à-vis anamorphics by offering additional horizontal film area. Not only did those newer spherical alternatives capture more of the upsides of anamorphic lenses, but they were also free of the downsides—the image artifacts and distortions that result from anamorphic compression and stretching: namely, elongated lens flare (see the prominent examples in the Playboy Bunny and Do Lung Bridge sequences of Apocalypse Now), an impressionistic, swirly bokeh (background blur), and obvious vignetting (darkened corners of the frame).
Assuming you see those as downsides, that is. In the digital era, van Tulleken says, cameras can be “very clean,” “pitiless,” and “ruthless.” That’s perfect for some projects—say, sports broadcasts—but with others, he says, “you’re trying to break that up” in order to “put an organic feel into that very digital realm.” In other words, wabi-sabi. Couple that desire with the enhanced light sensitivity of digital equipment, which has made it easier to meet the elevated lighting requirements of anamorphic lenses, and you have a recipe for a resurgence.
This impulse isn’t unique to Shogun’s creative team.The cinematographer Neil Oseman says that “ever since cinematography went mostly digital, filmmakers have looked for ways to undercut the clean precision of the images with some unpredictable characteristics. Introducing distortions, lens flares, [and] bowing in the horizontal lines, as many anamorphics do, is one way for cinematographers to achieve that.” Oseman, who blogged about the rise of anamorphic lenses on TV in 2020, says their use “has increased over the last five or 10 years” not only out of a desire for a more cinematic feel, but because “TV networks and streamers allow wider aspect ratios than they used to, so anamorphic lenses are an option where they weren’t before.” (Until about 20 years ago, most TVs weren’t wide-screen.) Anamorphic lenses are more expensive than spherical, but as Oseman notes, “TV budgets are high enough now for these expensive optics to be hired.”
Shogun’s budget was plenty big enough for the production to pair its Sony Venice cameras with Hawk V-Lite and class-X anamorphic lenses, whose bokeh boasts a “really interesting swirl,” according to van Tulleken. (V-Lites were used on the British crime drama Top Boy, an early small-screen anamorphic adopter that van Tulleken and Ross worked on.) As Shogun begins,Blackthorne arrives in a land that seems strange and somewhat barbaric to him. The Englishman seems just as strange and barbaric to those he meets. To capture that mutual alienation, the filmmakers leaned into their tools’ distortive effects. The aperture of a lens controls how open it is; the wider the aperture, the more light it lets in, and the more noticeable the bokeh. Early on, van Tulleken says, “We were wide open a lot on the [lenses] so that we could really have a natural, strong focus falloff behind our characters.”
See, for instance, Blackthorne’s wraithlike crewmates in the premiere:
Or a couple of Blackthorne’s captors looming behind him, before he breaks down the language barrier:
Some shots show basic barrel distortion. Others evince an even more exaggerated fish-eye effect. And then there’s the vignetting, which van Tulleken and Co. opted not to crop out in postproduction. “In some places, to show that Blackthorne alienation and that disorientation, we actually left those in,” the director says.
These choices suited the aesthetic the creators were crafting. Following the leads of Apocalypse Now, Macbeth, and The Revenant, Ross says,“We wanted to be more visceral and more first-person, wanted to put the audience in the protagonists’ shoes. So that led us to think that we would be jumping into their sphere of influence, within 3 feet of the characters’ space.” The background blur encourages the viewer to, well, focus on the foreground characters.
In theory, these anamorphic artifacts can convey character dynamics, too. In some scenes, van Tulleken says, “There was almost a wrestle for who was in control of them, whose scene it was.” Accentuating or masking anamorphic effects depending on the scene or the speaker was one way to “play with those shifting sands of power within a scene, and who thinks they have it and who doesn’t.” Ross adds, “Every scene has a surface story, a surface plot, but at the same time … deep levels of character development and then, in hindsight, some form of revelation, because of betrayal or whatever.” Rewatching Shogun withthat hindsight and dissecting it on a shot-by-shot level might produce epiphanies about why certain scenes were framed the way they were.
This all seems somewhat adventurous, stylistically, for a series FX was making a big bet on. Were there any network notes?
“There was nervousness,” Ross says. “There’s nervousness about everything, which is totally understandable. It’s huge sums of money to spend and an enormous leap into the unknown.” Ultimately, though, “Everyone was super supportive of this idea.” Van Tulleken acknowledges that “different streamers have a different appetite for boldness,” but at FX, he says, “No one ever said, ‘Ah, I think this thing is too much.’ … It was always a sense of: How can we push the show? How can we live up to the ambition of the show? … It was an astoundingly supportive environment to make something in.”
The internet, naturally, is not always so supportive. Shogun, on the whole, has been rapturously received by critics and the public alike. The unorthodox cinematography, specifically, has drawn some measure of praise but also some consternation, judging by various Reddit posts and comments. Some spectators seem to have been alienated (or just plain confused) by Shogun’s visual depiction of its characters’ alienation.
The anamorphic backlash to Shogun and its ilk could be akin to two common complaints about TV: Shows are too hard to hear, and shows are too dark to see. Each of those gripes stems in part from the fact that the conditions under which TV is created differ from the conditions under which it’s consumed. In this case, it’s not that viewers lack the high-end speakers or screens to render a director’s vision faithfully; it might be that the audience lacks the visual vocabulary to grok what the auteur intended. Perhaps this fancy stuff slays with cinephiles, but it leaves the average viewer cold.
One of the problems with Hollywood today is that all the movie editors are now using HDR screens with 1000 nits brightness, and they don’t realize that they are making every movie and TV show way too dark to see.
Van Tulleken is not the kind of creator who claims not to read the comments. “I’ve read all the Reddit,” he admits. And he’s thought a lot about the balance between challenging and distracting viewers.
“You just have to go where you feel the visuals tell you to go,” he says. On Shogun, these decisions were“led by the story” and “came from a very, very well-thought-out philosophy. … And I think if you’re trying to go out there and make something interesting and make something that captures people’s attention, it is impossible to please everyone.” Every viewer “has the right to their point of view,” van Tulleken continues, but “there’s a world where we make the clean show and you shoot it very clinically, and you wouldn’t get the praise.”
Nor would a director like van Tulleken feel fulfilled if he shied away from following his anamorphic muse. “Anything, frankly, that makes people sit up and lean forward and pay attention to their screen, I’m all in favor of,” he says. In his view, it’s better to conduct an experiment that might make some viewers annoyed than to hew so closely to convention that no one feels anything. “Sometimes on set, you feel a little scared doing something, and you don’t know whether that’s failing or succeeding,” van Tulleken says. “But I’m always quite a fan of that feeling of going, ‘God, I don’t know.’ I think it’s better to feel a little bit scared when you’re trying to make some art than the reverse of feeling like, ‘Ah, I know this will work because I’ve seen it a million times.’”
Ross’s sentiments are similar. “Sometimes some people won’t agree with you and they don’t like the aesthetic,” he says. “But if you try to create an aesthetic that everybody loved, then you’d effectively create the image equivalent of Walmart. And although it’s a great shop where you can buy everything you need, you don’t get your bespoke suit from Walmart, you get it from Jermyn Street. You’ve got to fight the fight you feel you need to win in order to create the aesthetic that all of you believe in so strongly.”
Darcy Touhey, a director, producer, and camera assistant who worked as a film loader on Shogun, responded to some Redditors to defend the visuals from accusations of sloppiness—though he does share some viewers’ reservations. Via private message, he says, “It is 100 percent supposed to look like this. It’s incredibly intentional and had to go through a lot of channels in [preproduction] to get approved. So people thinking it’s a mistake are just wrong. Artistically, you could say maybe it’s a mistake. Practically? Absolutely not. … We had like 10-14 monitors at any given time on set. Everyone was seeing what the audience is seeing.”
Lens-wise, however, he has some notes. “I don’t necessarily agree with the decision,” he says. “I think the breathing and the vignetting is very distracting. … Those lenses just looked better when slightly longer, in my opinion.” Touhey believes that on some series, filmmakers may be shooting wide open more than they need to and under-lighting due to digital dependency and inexperience with vintage glass. Van Tulleken confirms that to make anamorphic magic, “You need a great crew, you need a great cinematographer, you need people who really understand those lenses. … You need a great focus-puller. You need a great [camera assistant]. The lenses break, they fall apart. … I don’t think it’s for the casual hand.”
But Touhey also asserts that “people are focused on the lenses way too much when considering the cinematography of [Shogun]. The cinematography shines in this show because of the intense commitment from every department towards realism and authenticity. The sets, both studio and location, were unbelievable. The attention to detail was astounding. … A good show looks good because of every aspect of production.”
Like Blackthorne, Mariko, and most other Shogun characters, I’m torn between competing preferences and loyalties. On the one hand, I admire the audacity and distinctiveness of Shogun’s visuals and the care that clearly went into them. On the other hand, I do find the heavy anamorphic effects distracting, in the sense that some part of my brain fixates on the fluctuations in focus, possibly at the expense of some immersion in the show. (This tendency is probably exacerbated by Shogun’s reliance on subtitles: The text draws the eye to—and, in my mind, kind of clashes with—an often out-of-focus segment of the screen.) Also: I want to see those costumes, sets, and scenery! There are ways to make a series’ cinematography stand out without making some subset of the audience want to pound the tops of their TVs, Fonzie style.
I’m most amenable to the out-of-focus, swirly look when it serves the story, as it does on Shogun. The Gilded Age uses anamorphic effects to draw a distinction between the milieus of “old” New York and “new” New York. Severance does the same to separate the characters’ “severed” lives at Lumon Industries from their outside existence. Homecomingused anamorphics to underline the off-balance nature of the narrative.
Not every series seems to have such clear reasons for straying from TV tradition. Even on streaming series less thoughtful than Shogun, though, directors don’t end up with anamorphic effects by accident. “I think it’s always very considered and deliberate,” Touhey says. “Shows in those budget ranges are doing camera tests well before shooting. They are doing lens projection, etc., to make sure everything is working as intended.” Some series are steering away from sterility; others are pursuing a “cinematic” signifier. “People want TV to be more like cinema now,” Touhey says, “so the use of anamorphic is becoming more prevalent because people associate that with cinema. … I wouldn’t agree again that it’s best for the medium, but it is an easy way to visually say, ‘This TV is more like a movie than TV.’”
In effect, television has adopted a technique that moviemakers pioneered to differentiate film from TV. One wonders whether the anamorphic lens’s association with cinema will last now that this look is becoming ubiquitous on TV. “Part of my job is to make sure that we’re trying to do things that are not just being repeated everywhere,” van Tulleken says. “I’m always taking note of the cinematographers and what is being done in the space and who is making bold directorial decisions. And you’re always [hoping] you’re not aping and [that you’re] progressing the medium.”
The good news is that the more familiar anamorphic effects are, the less off-putting they’ll be. For directors who want to reset the status quo, though, that’s also the bad news. At this rate, a sharp, pristine picture might go back to being the bolder choice. Alternatively, directors could keep cranking the anamorphic meter higher to top previous stunts.
“Arguably, Netflix’s Chilling Adventures of Sabrina took it too far,” Oseman says. “They used Panavision Ultra [Speed Golds] anamorphics for scenes involving magic, which put a Salvador Dalí–esque blur on the sides of the frame. I thought it was a daring choice, but it was very noticeable, and I know it took some viewers out of the story.”
Perhaps that’s happened in Shogun at times, too. Then again, the slight discomfort and disorientation I’ve felt while watching Shogun are what its creators intended. Maybe it’s made me identify with the characters and enriched the experience in ways of which I’m not completely conscious. It’s tough to say: We can’t compare the Shogun we got to a version of the show that’s the same except for flawless footage shot with spherical lenses. What we can say is that the Shogun we got is good. And if the blur bothers some viewers, it can’t be a big impediment: Whether partly because of or partly in spite of the lens selection, people are watching (and largely loving) the show.
If your reaction to the initial lens look was closer to tolerance than love, you’ve probably been relieved to see those effects fade across the season. That, too, was part of the plan. The choices van Tulleken, Ross, and Marks made early on “set up a sandbox that everyone could then play in,” van Tulleken says; inside that structure, subsequent cinematographers and directors have had a lot of freedom to do their own thing. As van Tulleken concludes, “This show has an evolution, it has an arc, and I really believe in the grammar of shots, that they should show the escalating arc of a scene and of a story and a series. … We kept the same anamorphic lenses, we kept the same cameras, but not every scene needed what we were doing.” As Blackthorne learns the language and the lay of the land in later episodes, the disorientation is dialed down.
If you or someone you love is still struggling with the symptoms of TV’s anamorphic phase, at least you know now that you haven’t been hallucinating. Focus (so to speak) on the positive, and practice the eightfold fence. Maybe you’ll suddenly see the wisdom in this wabi-sabi of the screen. And if you still want to break up with blurry shows, don’t feel bad about it. It’s not you, it’s TV.
It’s time to fight for the people! The Midnight Boys give you their thoughts on the exciting Dev Patel action epic Monkey Man (00:00). They get into the nitty-gritty of the actor’s directorial debut and give their thoughts on what they think about the star’s filmmaking chops.
Hosts: Charles Holmes, Van Lathan, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve Ahlman Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran
“At my age, I can afford for film to be a passion and not a business.” That’s what Francis Ford Coppola told me 15 years ago during an interview about his 2009 film, Tetro, a glossy, quasi-autobiographical melodrama starring Alden Ehrenreich and Vincent Gallo that he described as being part of a professional rebirth—a “second career” whose guiding mandate (made possible by the Oscar winner’s long-fermenting sideline as a celebrity vintner) was to stay outside the studio system that made him both an icon and a punchline in the second half of the 20th century. More than any other member of his easy-riding cohort, Coppola emerged at the beginning of the ’70s as the face of the New Hollywood—a status beholden to the industry-shaking success of The Godfather films, and one that he retains, proudly but a bit ruefully, because of the startling unevenness of his post–Apocalypse Now output.
The idea that Coppola lost his mojo in the ’80s has always been a middlebrow myth, albeit one tied to a very real capacity for hubris; when he made a biopic of the iconoclastic inventor and auto-industry disrupter Preston Tucker—a quixotic genius brought down by his assembly-line-minded competitors—it was very obviously an act of self-portraiture. (Another of his on-screen doppelgängers: Gary Oldman as Count Dracula in Bram Stoker’s Dracula, an old-fashioned man trying to adjust to an increasingly newfangled world.) The title of 2007’s Youth Without Youth,meanwhile,suggested an old master nostalgically striving for naivete, an image of the sorcerer as apprentice very different from the majestic maturations of Spielberg and Scorsese, who played with form while stopping short of avant-garde experimentation. Coppola’s postmillennial work, though, went the distance: While not officially a trilogy, the films were more stylistically eccentric than the work of most contemporary auteurs (including the filmmaker’s own daughter, Sofia). In fact, the only real precedent for such aesthetic recklessness lay in their maker’s previous reviled passion projects. Say what you will about the sentimental fantasia of Youth Without Youth (about an elderly professor who de-ages after being struck by lightning) or the metafictional horror of Twixt (which features, among other things, several expressionistic 3D dream sequences and Val Kilmer’s Marlon Brando impression), but they are, if nothing else, Ones From the Heart.
The same would seem to be true of Coppola’s upcoming—and already legendary—sci-fi allegory Megalopolis,starring the patron saint of iconoclastic directors, Adam Driver, and featuring a supporting ensemble that seems to have been generated at random. Stop me if you’ve heard this one before: Jon Voight, Shia LaBeouf, and Aubrey Plaza walk into a bar. The film, which is hotly tipped to be making its world premiere next month at Cannes, has already been described by industry insiders as “batshit crazy” and a “mix of Ayn Rand, Metropolis,and Caligula”— a fascinating and potentially fatal designation for a self-financed movie that’s been in the works for 40 years and whose budget is reportedly north of $100 million. (So far, no distributor has stepped up to the plate.) Given the material’s themes of excess and empire—with embedded parallels between the ruling classes of ancient Rome and contemporary America—it’s possible that Megalopolis will end up as a complement to The Godfather series, which remains one of the most steadfastly anti-capitalistic epics ever produced in the United States. But if we’re talking purely about artistic legacy, the movie that Coppola is chasing is the one that represents the most rigorous, vertiginous balance between his populist instincts and experimental intuition: 1974’s supremely and persuasively paranoid thriller The Conversation,a movie that defined its specific sociopolitical moment but that also somehow feels more pristinely and discombobulatingly modern than anything on the 2024 calendar.
It begins with a bird’s-eye view: a predatory perspective on San Francisco’s Union Square that renders the park in stark, almost geometric terms. Eventually, the camera begins zooming forward and down, a slow, deliberate movement that heightens the sense of documentary realism—a bustling urban scene observed at a distance—while introducing Coppola’s obsessive and claustrophobic theme of technological control. We’re not as free to look around as we think we are, and it’s not long before the shot isolates our protagonist, Harry Caul (Gene Hackman), who cuts a noticeably solitary figure in his slate-gray raincoat. Accosted by a mime, Harry refuses to engage, suggesting that his loneliness is by choice; the street performer, meanwhile, is a nod to Italian maestro Michelangelo Antonioni, whose 1966 art-house hit, Blow-Up,had been a beacon to so many emerging young American directors. In that virtuosic tour de force, a photographer poring through his own snapshots thinks that he sees evidence of a murder scene; in Coppola’s homage, a surveillance expert, the aforementioned Mr. Caul, comes to suspect that one of his field recordings contains garbled but distressing audio evidence of a potentially lethal conspiracy against two civilians. Haunted by his past complicity in a violent tragedy, Harry decides to figure out who’s trying to kill the people he’d taped in the park and why, effectively contradicting his own philosophies of distance and disinterest. “I don’t know anything about curiosity,” he tells a colleague. As it turns out, what Harry doesn’t know could kill him.
Ostensibly, the model for Harry was Martin L. Kaiser, a wiretapping savant who worked with the CIA and FBI and who also served as a technical consultant for Coppola’s film. Hackman plays Harry as a man who’s more comfortable talking about technology than his feelings; his longest conversations are with a priest, who receives his confessionals in stony silence. The idea of a cipher who intently listens in on other people’s conversations for lack of having much to say (or anyone to say it to) is an irresistible hook, and Hackman—who was coming off an Academy Award for playing the charismatic, two-fisted NYPD hero Popeye Doyle in The French Connection—gives an ingeniously introverted performance. Harry has repressed his desires so deeply that he can’t consciously connect to them. Instead, they’re lurking in the back of his mind through knots of sweaty, tangled, Catholic guilt. In one haunting sequence set against the backdrop of one of Harry’s chronic nightmares, we learn that he was sick as a boy and nearly died in the bathtub after being left alone by his mother, an anecdote that not only unlocks the character’s chronic moroseness but also connects him to Coppola himself, echoing the director’s childhood struggles with polio.
Viewed through this self-reflective lens, The Conversation deepens in resonance and complexity, revealing itself less as a riff on Antonioni than an expression of deeply personal ideas and anxieties around life and filmmaking. “[I] had heard of microphones that had gun sights on them that were so powerful and selective that they could, if aimed at the mouths of people in the crowd, pick up their conversation,” Coppola told Film Comment. “I thought: what an odd device and motif for a film. This image of two people walking through a crowd with their conversation being interrupted every time someone steps in front of the gunsight. … I began to very informally put together a couple of thoughts about it, and came to the conclusion that the film would be about the eavesdropper, rather than the people.”
The concept for The Conversation dates back to 1967, but Coppola waited to make it until the interregnum between the first Godfather pictures, citing a desire to work on something smaller scale. With this in mind, the sinister, enigmatic character of the Director—Harry’s employer, and a man implied to have a number of dizzyingly high-end connections—is legible as an analogue of an industrial power structure that Coppola has always tried to challenge or subvert. (Think of the gleeful, bloody satire of Hollywood casting practices in The Godfather,with its obnoxious A-list producer brought into line by the gift of a racehorse’s head in his bed.) That the Director is played by Robert Duvall cinches the conceptual link between the films, and a case can be made that, beyond Hackman’s impeccable anti-star turn, The Conversation features one of the best and most eclectic casts of the ’70s, including John Cazale, Frederic Forrest, Allen Garfield, Teri Garr, and an impossibly young Harrison Ford, who oozes menace as one of the numerous shady operators in Harry’s orbit.
As a piece of filmmaking, The Conversation is beautifully executed, with textured, tactile cinematography by Bill Butler, who would go on to shoot Jaws;carefully dividing the interior settings into squarish steel-and-glass frames, Coppola evokes the placid sterility of modern architecture only to pause for bursts of expressionistic splatter. (A toilet that spills over with blood during a hallucination sequence simultaneously looks backward toward Psycho and ahead to The Shining.) The almost subliminally precise editing is by Richard Chew and Walter Murch, the latter of whom was also responsible for the film’s phenomenally detailed sound mix, which turns the aural landscape of San Francisco into a character in its own right. In an interview with IndieWire, Murch explained that he and Coppola were primarily interested in questions of realism, starting with the Union Square prologue. “It was shot with hidden cameras,” said Murch, “and apart from the leads and a couple of plants, 90 percent of the people you see were captured in the moment.”
The overlay of authenticity on carefully structured fiction is the movie’s ace in the hole: The more naturalistic the presentation, the less the audience notices that they’re being manipulated. The Union Square scene provides Harry—and the audience—with the audio snippet that acts as both a narrative catalyst and an insidious source of misdirection. The pitch-black joke at the heart of The Conversation is that Harry’s preternatural skill at capturing sound—the instincts that make him, in the words of a colleague, “the best bugger on the West Coast”—doesn’t give him the ability to interpret it properly. Slowly, that conjoined, paradoxical sense of authority and confusion boomerangs back on the viewer, whose understanding of events is carefully filtered through Harry’s own (ultimately mistaken) perceptions. Like Roman Polanski’s Chinatown—which was released the same year—The Conversation is a movie about a character whose own brilliance becomes a liability because he can’t see (or in this case, hear) the bigger picture. The two films also share a theme of institutional corruption that couldn’t have been more timely, but where Polanski’s neo-noir used the social and political topography of the 1930s to critique rapacious late-capitalist practices, Coppola’s artistic antenna channeled a zeitgeist in which secretly recorded audiotape was understood as a kind of smoking gun. That the film hadn’t actually been inspired by Watergate or the Nixon tapes didn’t matter. In a moment when surveillance tech was becoming interwoven into every aspect of daily life, The Conversation quickly became a conversation piece—an allegory about the collapsing gap between a generation’s public and private lives.
In 1998, director Tony Scott cast Hackman as a surveillance expert opposite Will Smith in Enemy of the State, sparking fan theories that the character was an alternate identity for Harry Caul. It’s a funny notion that suggests the depth of the late action auteur’s cinephilia, but it also undermines the devastating finality of The Conversation’sclosing scenes, which rank among the darkest endings of the 1970s. Without completely spoiling the film’s plot—which is itself really just a pretense for Coppola’s fine-grained and unsentimental exercise in character study—it can be said that Harry comes out on the losing end. However malevolent the larger forces around him may be, the film is ultimately a story about a man disappearing into a rabbit hole of his own making. No matter how many careers Coppola has, he’s unlikely to match the potency of this coda: The manic yet methodical energy with which Harry goes about (literally) dismantling his own little corner of the world—in search of a bug that may or may not exist—provides an indelible image of physical and psychological ruin. A heartbreaking, blood-chilling glimpse of the expert (or maybe the artist) as a helpless, compulsive prisoner of his own devices.
Adam Nayman is a film critic, teacher, and author based in Toronto; his book The Coen Brothers: This Book Really Ties the Films Together is available now from Abrams.
It’s time to tap into the animation sensation that is Invincible for its Season 2 finale! The Midnight Boys talk about what made the season overall a little different this time around (14:08). Then they tap back into the captivating Shogun and what they think may happen leading into the finale (55:38). And finally, they take on the drama between Storm and Forge in this week’s X-Men ’97 (88:55).
Hosts: Charles Holmes, Van Lathan, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve Ahlman Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran
Greg returns to discuss Episodes 109-112 with Juliet. They cover many firsts for Felicity: her first Thanksgiving away from home, her first finals, her first time (almost). It’s a momentous stretch for Felicity and for TV as we now know it. Jennifer Garner appears as a guest star, playing Noel’s girlfriend Hannah, and it’s her first step into the J.J. Abrams cinematic universe. We commemorate the occasion as Garner comes on the podcast to talk about auditioning for the role of Hannah, working with J.J. on Alias, and why she’s seen every episode of Felicity despite appearing in only a few of them.
Next time: Episodes 113-115. Watch on Hulu.
Hosts: Amanda Foreman, Greg Grunberg, and Juliet Litman Executive Producers: JJ Abrams and Matt Reeves For Bad Robot Audio: Executive Producer Christina Choi, Producer Shaka Tafari For The Ringer: Executive Producer Sean Fennessey, Executive Producer Juliet Litman, Senior Producer Kaya McMullen, Producer Erika Cervantes Original Music: Eric Phillips Sound Design: Kaya McMullen Mixing and Mastering: Scott Somerville
Two days before Rosenberg and Dip appear in front of a SOLD-OUT crowd in Philadelphia, they’re together in New York City to discuss their big takeaways from last night’s Raw. (00:00) After that, Dip airs some grievances about the luxury towel industry, solicits bagel recommendations in Saudi Arabia, and then pulls it together for a little mailbag (28:40).
Then, Big E joins Rosenberg for a chat intended to be about WrestleMania, but becomes a much more important conversation (43:55). Rosenberg and Big E each open up about their own mental health struggles, and Big E sheds light on how meditation and living in the present moment has helped him overcome his demons. The guys then finish out the conversation with a discussion concerning the Bray Wyatt documentary and how Wyatt’s sudden death changed Big E’s perspective on life (01:08:45).
Thanks to Snickers for helping Big E join the program.
We’ll see you Thursday.
Hosts: Peter Rosenberg and Dip Guest: Big E Producer: Troy Farkas
Today on the show, we celebrate Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire with our March Madness monster/kaiju bracket! Jessica Clemons joins Jomi and Steve to put together their list of the 16 best film kaijus. Which one will outlast their monster competition?
Hosts: Jomi Adeniran and Steve Ahlman Guest: Jessica Clemons Producer: Jonathan Kermah Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal
Matt is joined by Van Lathan to discuss the complicated and nuanced relationship between TMZ and Hollywood. As a former TMZ employee, Van walks us through how the sausage is made at TMZ and outlines its aggressive reporting style, how it pays its sources, and how, despite its often negative perception, the mainstream media has become more like TMZ, not the other way around.
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