What I would say is, unfortunately, a lot of closeted men end their life by suicide. That easily could have been me. I could have been part of that statistic. Instead, I’m here. I will have a lot of sadness and shame about things that I did in my past, and I will have to live with that for the rest of my life. That is on me 100%.
Even going through this six years later, [The Traitors] was my favorite show I’ve ever done. I didn’t really expect people to draw a line from how I showed up and played Traitors to my past, but that happened. Unfortunately, now I have to relive what happened six years ago with my husband and with my kid, as a father. As somebody who’s changed so much, to see things pop up on social media and to hear certain things—it’s challenging, right? That was such a traumatic time for a lot of people. It’s something I’m gonna always sort of have to own moving forward.
There are some people in the world—and online—that will simply never forgive you. Why do you keep putting yourself on TV?
It’s a great question. “Why do you keep putting yourself through this, dude? Like, go away if you don’t want it.” (Laughs.) I love the entertainment industry. I love representing same sex couples who want to have kids, hosting Daddyhood [Underwood’s podcast]. Having some of my gay friends reach out and be like, “It was so cool to watch you grab Rob’s backpack [on The Traitors]. Like, that representation on television was epic to see from a gay man. Oftentimes we have to shrink ourselves when we enter these masculine spaces, and the fact that you like put your chest out was really cool to see.”
What gets me to show up every single day is the lives that I’ve saved. I say that because I’ve received messages from people across not only our country, but like, because of Netflix, the world, saying, “I didn’t see a path out. I didn’t know what my life was, but watching your story and watching what you went through helped me come out and saved my life.” Those are the ones that I hold onto dearly and that motivate me, that make my skin a little thicker.
But don’t get me wrong, I still have days where I just want to go away. (Laughs.) I wanna live on a farm. I never want to be seen. I texted my team after the reunion—I was like, “I need to go away and get off camera.”
Okay, last question: the banquet outfit. What were you thinking?
I stand by it.
Really? Defend it.
Alan Cumming went on Watch What Happens Live and called it “castle couture.” Like, if I have Alan Cumming’s stamp of approval…. By the time of that banquet, the dog pile was already happening on social media. I was an easy target, low-hanging fruit. We did receive a mood board from production of what that night was gonna be. And if you saw the mood board, you’d be like, “Okay, he showed up. He delivered. He is the mood board.” You’re in Scotland playing Traitors, and it is one of the gayest shows on television. I wanna lean into it.
“Once I stepped into my womanhood, I felt like the main character of my life,” Dylan Mulvaney tells me, while sipping her lemon drop. “So now that means that I can be the main character on stage.” The social media star and I are dining at Arno, a traditional Italian restaurant, on a frigid evening in January in lower Midtown, a stone’s throw from Penn Station. There’s a good reason we’re dining in a less-than-ideal location—Arno is blocks away from Ripley-Grier Studios, where Mulvaney has just spent the day rehearsing for her Broadway debut as the second, and most infamous, of Henry VIII’s wives, Anne Boleyn, in the Tony-winning musical Six.
Mulvaney’s penchant for girlish giggles and squeals between bites of her spaghetti pomodoro stand out in Arno, especially when juxtaposed against the sea of older gentlemen in an assortment of ill-fitting grey blazers sitting behind her at the bar. She’s wearing a black ballet dress with her long brown hair half up, half down, instantly reminiscent of Audrey Hepburn—something that was by design. “I noticed if I look good for rehearsal, if I fuck up, I’m like, Oh, well, at least I look good,” she says. After years of living in Los Angeles, she’s adjusting to life in NYC. “I feel like if I walk outside for five seconds, I run into somebody that I’ve slept with or somebody that I want to sleep with. You kind of have to look good all the time.”
Mulvaney’s about a week into a four-week rehearsal process to fulfill a lifelong dream of hers—starring in a Broadway musical. It’s not an understatement to say that the world has watched her reach this moment. Her legion of social media followers—1.5 million on Instagram and 9 million on TikTok, as of publishing—have been hooked on Mulvaney’s confessional online content since she began her series “365 Days of Girlhood” on March 13, 2022, which served as a daily chronicle of her gender-affirming transition from male to female. Mulvaney left nothing off the table—the highs, the lows, and the messy in-betweens of becoming the woman she always knew that she was.
But even pre–social media fame and pre-transition, the San Diego native had grease paint roaring through her veins, but didn’t necessarily know where to put that energy as she struggled with her gender identity. Her theatrical dreams “were so small because I hadn’t found my true self. In order to confine myself to a gender that I knew that I wasn’t,” Mulvaney shares. “I had to be like, ‘Oh, I want to be in the ensemble. I want to be in the back. I want to be tree number three.’” Looking back, she could count on one hand the roles that she felt even partially represented in as a child struggling with their gender identity—Kurt from Glee, Ernst from Spring Awakening. “There were so few roles that I could even find femininity in,” she says
Despite her misgivings, she persisted, studying musical theater at the University of Cincinnati College of Music, a prestigious musical theater program, and even playing Elder White in the national tour of Book of Mormon. There, again, her ambition and dreams were stifled by her present-day reality, trapped in a body that was anathema to her. “When I was doing Book of Mormon, I was like, ‘Well, hopefully I’ll just do this for the rest of my life, and I get a lot of Botox,’” she says, wryly.
Last season, Lucy falsely claims she was a victim of sexual assault in order to protect what actually happened to her best friend Pippa. What was important to you in advancing that controversial storyline for the third season?
The main thing that I wanted to be very careful about was Lucy’s intention behind it all, and continuing to remind the audience that she did not do this for attention. She didn’t do it for any malicious reason. She didn’t even do it just to get Chris in trouble. She did it to protect her friend. And it was a dumb thing to do, but it came from a good place. I really wanted to be careful that we weren’t making any kind of statement that girls lie [about sexual assault] because I don’t think that girls really do usually lie about this, but this is such a unique and specific situation. And making sure that Lucy continued to reject any public sympathy or public attention, so that it never got misconstrued with her liking it or seeking it.
Lucy’s decision regarding Pippa’s assault last season upset fans and divided the writers’ room. How much of her season two journey was informed by those intense reactions?
It continued to be a divisive storyline in the room. I love our audience so much, but I do feel a bit hurt on Lucy’s behalf at how hard they are on her. They have asked for a lot of punishment for her, which I don’t think she deserves. Audiences are just harder on female characters. That has become very obvious to me while writing the show. So I was posing a question to them with this season: are you happy now? It was about getting her to a place where she was a caged animal. There can’t be too much time to think of other escape routes for her. It has to be right then and there. He’s going to call Bree right then. Otherwise, it falls apart.
The audience might think they know what they want, but it’s not always what’s best for the storytelling. But people send me all the memes, all the reaction videos, and I fucking love those. There are moments when you’re in the trenches, so stressed, and then you get the funniest TikTok video ever about a reaction. It gives you a bit of bounce in your step.
The Bree and Evan romance is beloved among Tell Me Lies fans, but this season you introduce a budding flirtation between Bree and Wrigley. When did you decide to explore their dynamic?
It was always on the table. It just became very clear by season three that these are the two purest people on the show. And I thought that those two really deserved that pure thing. Once we decided for sure that that was where the season was going to fully go, it happened so organically and their chemistry is just amazing. Also, last season, my God, we put Bree through the ringer. And we’ve always put Wrigley through the ringer, so they both needed some joy.
Mary Sheffield, a political phenom whose rise began when she was elected to Detroit City Council at age 26, made history Thursday when she was sworn in as the city’s first woman mayor.
In her first one-on-one interview since taking office, Sheffield spoke with Metro Times about making history as Detroit’s first woman mayor, how she wants residents to judge her success, the balance between downtown development and neighborhood needs, and the priorities she plans to tackle in her first term. She also opened up about her recent marriage and her relationship with God.
Sheffield’s inauguration marks the start of a new era in city government, ending a 324-year stretch in which men led Detroit.
Now 38, Sheffield has become a popular figure in city politics by promoting progressive values, advocating for racial equality, and championing policies aimed at narrowing the economic divide.
Sheffield won the general election with 77% of the vote in November, delivering a decisive mandate for a platform centered on equity, neighborhood investment, and structural reforms designed to improve residents’ quality of life.
She now faces daunting and serious challenges. Nearly half of Detroit’s children live in poverty, many neighborhoods continue to struggle with basic resources and disinvestment, and the city has seen a continued exodus of Black residents even as downtown has flourished.
Sheffield’s rise has been rapid and historic. In November 2013, Sheffield was 26 years old when she became the youngest person ever elected to Detroit City Council. She later became the council’s youngest president.
During her tenure on the council, Sheffield has become a leading advocate for affordable housing, tenants’ rights, neighborhood development, property tax reform, and environmental justice, often pushing back against large tax incentives for wealthy developers and calling for investment strategies that more directly benefit longtime Detroiters.
Sheffield succeeds Mike Duggan, who did not seek reelection after three terms and is now running for governor as an independent.
Metro Times: Yesterday, you became Detroit’s first woman mayor. What does that milestone mean to you personally, and what do you hope it means to women and girls growing up in the city?
Mayor Mary Sheffield: I think it means leadership has no gender, no age limit, and no ceiling. And for women, especially Black women, it affirms that our voices, our experiences, and our ideas belong at the highest levels of decision-making. I’ve watched so many young girls follow me throughout this campaign who feel inspired and empowered, and that’s what I’ve always wanted my leadership to reflect. It’s an indication to dream big, to work hard, and to know that we can all achieve what we put our minds to.
I also think it’s a powerful moment as it relates to attracting and retaining youth in Detroit. Hopefully this is an inspiration and motivation to want to be in Detroit. There are so many young professionals who I believe are encouraged and inspired to stay and come back to the city as well.
Metro Times: You became the youngest person ever elected to City Council at 26 and later the youngest council president. What has driven you, at such a young age, to serve?
Mayor Sheffield: It all goes back to my childhood. My life was really molded by service. It’s all I know. My father [Rev. Horace Sheffield III] was a civil rights activist and preacher, and my mother [Yvonne Lovett] was an educator at Wayne County Community College District and a professor of nursing. Both of them showed me that life is really all about serving.
Detroit is a city that shaped me and molded me into who I am. When I got into office at 26, I didn’t know I would have the impact I had in terms of legislative accomplishments, but it motivated me to understand how important these positions are in directly changing quality of life. Detroit has made tremendous progress, but there are still needs. That inspired me to continue serving now as mayor, to elevate the issues that matter to Detroiters and ensure that Detroit’s resurgence goes deeper into our neighborhoods.
Detroit Mayor Mary Sheffield succeeds Mike Duggan, who led the city since 2014.
Metro Times: When Mike Duggan was first elected in 2013, he said residents could judge his success by whether Detroit’s population increased. Is there a similar benchmark you want Detroiters to use to judge your administration?
Mayor Sheffield: For me, it’s really about overall quality of life. Whether that’s directing more money into our neighborhoods, making Detroit the best place to grow and start a business, creating more jobs, increasing incomes. I don’t think it’s one singular thing.
I want Detroiters to be able to say their quality of life is better because of this administration. That their neighborhood has investment. That their street lights are on. That they were able to access a home repair grant. If incomes are increased, mental health is better, and poverty is reduced, those are the things I want to be judged on.
Metro Times: Are there one or two priorities you want residents to see tangible action on in your first year?
Mayor Sheffield: First and foremost, we have to take bold steps around housing. I want to see more development of affordable housing, particularly access to homeownership. Increasing the number of residents who can become homeowners is very important to me.
Neighborhood reforms are also critical — basic infrastructure like sidewalk repairs, dangerous trees, alley cleaning, and overall neighborhood investment. We want to activate additional commercial corridors to support small businesses and bring vibrancy back to neighborhoods. And property tax reform is extremely important. It may take time, but providing relief from Detroit’s high millage rate is a priority.
Metro Times: Is there a neighborhood issue you think City Hall has underestimated or misunderstood for too long?
Mayor Sheffield: For me, it’s about creating a government that directly works for people and is easily accessible. We want to bring government back into the neighborhoods, whether that’s activating rec centers where residents can access city services or creating more community hubs.
There’s always room to improve customer service — how we respond when residents call about sidewalks or vacant buildings. Creating opportunity hubs throughout neighborhoods so people can easily access resources is something we’re committed to improving.
Then-Detroit City Council President Mary Sheffield at a charity basketball game in 2023. Credit: City of Detroit
Metro Times: Former Mayor Duggan emphasized art and culture through murals and public projects. How important is it for your administration to continue elevating art and culture?
Mayor Sheffield: It’s extremely important. Arts and culture came up significantly throughout the campaign. We had a committee focused on it and met with many stakeholders. It’s an untapped economic engine that we haven’t fully utilized.
We’re looking at forming an office dedicated to the creative economy and taking mural arts and cultural investment to another level. Arts and culture are part of Detroit’s identity. They beautify neighborhoods, tell our story, and create opportunities for local artists. We want to make sure this work is valued and funded appropriately.
Metro Times: What part of being mayor do you think will be the hardest for you personally?
Mayor Sheffield: I really want to understand and listen to everyone’s perspective. I believe in leading with collaboration and making sure people feel seen, valued, and empowered. In a big city, there are many voices and ideas, and balancing that can be challenging.
Politically, the climate has changed, and we have to do more with less. And as a woman leader, there are different expectations and standards I’ll be judged by. That can be difficult. But I believe I was put here for a reason, and that God will equip me with what I need to serve Detroiters.
Metro Times: What keeps you optimistic about Detroit right now?
Mary Sheffield: The people. I’ve been inspired by the support from corporate leaders, grassroots organizers, faith communities — every sector of the city. There’s a shared belief that Detroit’s best days are ahead.
During the transition alone, we had 18 committees and more than 150 residents and business leaders give their time and expertise. That tells me people are deeply invested in Detroit’s future. No one wants to see this city go backward.
Metro Times: You’re known for progressive leadership and taking positions that weren’t always popular. What do you think people don’t know about you?
Mayor Sheffield: I’m very purpose-driven. I focus a lot on personal development and always trying to be better as a person and a leader. I’m very family-driven, and my relationship with God is central to who I am. I’m always working on improving myself.
Metro Times: You recently got married. Has your relationship with your husband Ricky Jackson Jr. shaped or grounded you as you take on the role of mayor?
Mayor Sheffield: Without a doubt. He brings a lot of stability and peace in the midst of what can be turbulent and chaotic times. He’s an anchor that keeps me grounded. I’m blessed to have someone by my side who shares a deep commitment to the betterment of Detroit. He’s from Detroit, went to Cass Tech, and has a passion for youth and sports. He’s been a true blessing throughout this process.
Metro Times: When things get overwhelming, how do you reset or ground yourself?
Mayor Sheffield: Stillness. Prayer. Being quiet and listening to my intuition. Finding ways to center myself and really listen.
It’s OK to let go of the past, but to heal fully, it’s important to remember the lessons that your experience taught you. No theme rings more true than in Ariel Mahler’s short film Re-Entry, a masterclass character study that artfully weaves the tender and cerebral in a tale of reconciliation with past regrets and the overwhelming power of self-love. The story follows a transgender NASA scientist, Maya (Danielle Squyres), who rediscovers a lost satellite she launched 35 years earlier. Though excited by the potential recovery of the satellite, Maya finds herself still haunted by the memory of her painful, closeted past (younger Maya, played by Tirosh Schneider) and what she perceives to be the humiliating end of her career. Maya must decide whether to inform NASA about recovering the satellite or to let the weight of the past send her spiraling through orbit.
The 15-minute short was an official selection of Out on Film – Atlanta in 2024 and the recipient of the Best LGBTQ+ short award at the Savannah Film Festival.
Below, Mahler opens up to Deadline about the vulnerabilities of crafting cinematic trans narratives, inspirations and the importance of self-reflection.
DEADLINE: Where did the idea of Re-Entry come from?
ARIEL MAHLER: It started with science because my cinematographer, who I’m really close with, who is also trans, Maryn McGaw, actually sent me a TikTok video about this phenomenon known as a zombie satellite. This is a scientific phenomenon: a satellite launched many decades ago sometimes malfunctions, stops communicating, and then floats aimlessly in outer space. Then, what’ll happen even more decades later, the satellite will reemerge and essentially come back to life and start communicating again, hence the zombie satellite name. So, when I was looking at this video, it had a real emotional impact on me because it was a language that resonated with me as a trans person. The TikToker was talking about these satellites floating, lost in the wrong orbit, searching for the ability to communicate after they’ve lost it, and then something happens where they’re able to reemerge and begin communicating again. They find their orbit and their orientation. And, I was just like, “Yep, that tracks. I’ve had all of those experiences in my own personal life.”
So, when I saw this video, I imagined that it would be like creating a character who lives as a metaphor for the satellite. This trans woman, who has for a long time felt like she’s lost in the wrong orbit, is floating, searching for her community, when something inspires her to re-engage and re-enter her own life, essentially. Re-Entry is a story about reconciling with your past and making terms with who you once were, as it impacts who you are now. And I think that everybody probably can relate to the experience of thinking about your past and thinking about choices you made or things you did or things you didn’t do that impact who you are today, and that you maybe regret or you have complicated feelings about. And for queer and trans people, we tend to have a very complicated relationship with our past. So, I wanted to use this metaphor as a vehicle to explore our relationship with the past and how we integrate it.
DEADLINE: What were some cinematic influences for your short?
MAHLER: One of my favorite genres is emotional sci-fi films. Some of the biggest reference points for me are Arrival, Contact and Interstellar. They are all films that use science as a vehicle to tell a deep, emotional story about whatever situation the character is facing. So, me and my cinematographer watched those.
DEADLINE: I’m fascinated by the way you tell the story. You have two different actors playing the same character: one, the younger male presenting version of Maya, and the other, the older version of Maya. Talk a bit more about this concept of both of them being in communication with each other onscreen.
MAHLER: It wasn’t always that way. In the creative writing process, I struggled with [how to convey inner turmoil]. I knew the story’s foundation was an older trans woman who rediscovers a satellite she helped launch and is now forced to decide, “Do I return to NASA as my new self?” So, I knew that there had to be another person involved in that because I didn’t want her to just be alone wandering around having this monologue. So, I really struggled with who is the best person to bring into this world and to interrupt the status quo of how she lives her life. There was a version where her coworker, George (Robert Dowdy/Leon A. Walker), came in much earlier, and it was actually him who showed up and said, “Hey, we found the satellite.” And then she had to deal with, “Do I out myself to him? How does this go?” There was a version where it was a young NASA intern who came over to try to get her to come back to NASA. There were all these different versions of it.
And then I was thinking about, I want this to be the most coherent and specific conflict possible. So, who is Maya actually struggling with? Who is she most at odds with? And I realized, oh, it’s herself. And then I also realized, oh, this is a film, so I can sort of bend reality a little. Not too much, but realistic enough to tell this story. So, the idea of bringing her former self back evolved through that very slow process. It was something I was a little nervous about at first because I think a lot of trans people tend to have complicated relationships with our past, as I said earlier. One of those complexities is that it can be hard to reckon with former versions of ourselves. Trans people sometimes even use the phrase dead name to refer to their former self as if their previous self is literally dead. I’ve always struggled with that because on one hand, I understand that. Looking at old photos of myself, I found it challenging and struggled to a certain extent.
But on the other hand, I actually have a lot of love and compassion for my younger self, because I think about it as, “They were just trying to do the best they could in a world that was telling them they had to be a very specific type of person.” I remember that the idea of putting the characters face-to-face felt scary, but it was also another reason why I was like, that means it’s the right thing to do, because if I’m afraid of it, I’m a bit like, this is risky, then that feels like exactly the right place to go.
Re-Entry
AFI / Ariel Mahler
DEADLINE: How much of this short film is you?
MAHLER: I’ll answer this first by going back to the film at hand. When I decided to bring the younger Maya into the world, I struggled. I was really trying to figure out who was going to go back to NASA and who was anti-going back to NASA. Originally, it was flipped from the film version. Older Maya was the one who was like, “I found the data, I want to go back,” and younger Maya was like, “No, you can’t. You can’t let them see you like this.” Then that was the push-and-pull dynamic, but it flipped. The reason that this feels relevant to your question, I think, is part of the challenge and also catharsis of making this movie is that it was a messy process. It’s messy to think about my past. On one hand, I want to grab the former me and shake them by the shoulders and be like, “What are you doing? Stop lying to everybody. Stop lying to yourself. Take control of your destiny. It’s not worth spending all of this time being miserable.”
There’s also some anger that I feel towards my younger self and love, shame, empathy and just the whole rainbow of human emotions. When a film is so deeply personal, it can be really challenging to drill down into the core thing [you’re trying to communicate]. Because it’s a short film, I only have 15 minutes to say one very specific thing, and there’s so much that I could say on this topic. Trying to nail down one specific thing made it really challenging but energizing.
The other piece that feels relevant to your question is my journey as a filmmaker. This is obviously a very trans story with a trans narrative, but, as a storyteller, it’s also important to me to tell stories that are not “just trans.” I never want it to be where the only conflict is coming out, or the only conflict is trans identity. So, for this short film, putting Maya in the realm of this scientific world was meaningful to me because she’s not just trans, she’s a scientist. She’s a NASA astronomer. She has a whole career that she’s been working her entire life for.
In the same way that I’m not just trans, I’m a filmmaker and an artist, and I have a career I’m building. So those two things feel deeply connected. But when I think about past me, I’m thinking about it in relation to my gender. I’m also thinking about the regrets I have. I knew I wanted to be a filmmaker when I was four years old, stealing my dad’s camcorder and making dumb little movies with my friends, yet I was afraid to embrace it fully. I was like, “Well, that’s not practical,” throughout high school and college. I opted to be more traditional. Then it wasn’t until I was almost 30 that I really embraced filmmaking. So, I look at former me and think about where my career would probably be now, if I had started back in high school or whatever.
DEADLINE: How did you find your two leads in younger and older Maya?
MAHLER: It was a very interesting challenge that I set up for myself, because I knew that I, one, had to cast a trans woman as a lead, and two, someone who was at least 50 years old, plus, because authentic casting is really important to me. But, unfortunately, there just aren’t a lot of visible older trans women actresses. And this isn’t because they aren’t out there, but because they just haven’t really been given the opportunity to get work or be seen. So, thankfully, Danielle Squyres was part of an acting group in LA called ActNOW, which is a program for queer and trans people. I have some friends who are also involved in that, and one of them, my friend Sasha Forests, knew Danielle and connected us. So, I brought her in for the audition process, and I knew she was the one. She has a really beautiful subtlety and was also really able to capture that external shell. But then, inside, you can sense the vulnerability and rawness.
For younger Maya, that was a new challenge, because I cast Danielle first, so I needed to find someone who vaguely resembled her. It was still about authenticity casting; I wanted somebody who had at least some personal understanding of queer and trans identity. So, I didn’t just want to necessarily cast a straight cisgender man who has no personal experience with that, but at the same time, I didn’t fully want to cast a trans woman and ask her to completely detransition herself for this student film. So, I was like, “How do I balance this?” Thankfully, I met Tirosh [Schneider] through a mutual friend, and they identify as non-binary and gender queer. They were comfortable presenting as a male at the time but are very much in the queer world and know what the experience of feeling othered by your gender is like, so that felt important.
Also, I do think, from a spiritual perspective, once you begin the journey of making a film, there’s a call in the universe, or God, or whoever you pull your power from, that magic conspires to put all the pieces into place. And the fact that I met Danielle, Tirosh and Robert, who plays George, all these people came into my life at the exact moment when I needed to find them. It was a beautiful experience.
Re-Entry
AFI/Ariel Mahler
DEADLINE: You’ve shown this film on the festival circuit. What has the reception been like so far?
MAHLER: We’ve been lucky and have had great feedback. We’ve been going to festivals for a year and a half now, which is awesome and exciting. The most meaningful thing to me is when specifically trans people come up to me and feel really seen by this story, because I do think that anytime you’re putting something out that is vulnerable, there’s a bit of fear. I didn’t know how trans people were going to respond to this younger self idea of putting a physical form of this woman’s younger [male-presenting] self. And a lot of the trans people that I’ve spoken to feel really seen and emotionally resonant with that story, so that means a lot. We’ve also been able to screen it for some students and young people, and having younger trans folks come up to me and say they were touched by and appreciate this story is meaningful to me because I never had that when I was young.
DEADLINE: What would you like people to take away from this short?
MAHLER: For me, I’ve learned that I would often go back in order to move forward. We have to look backwards and engage with our past. Engaging with the past can be scary, uncomfortable and vulnerable, but that’s exactly why we have to face that hard truth. It’s only through actively engaging with our past and making terms with our journey that we’re able to move forward.
[This interview has been edited for length and clarity]
I felt like our connection was this cynicism we had. I always thought that was interesting—you create an alliance, whether it be with a best friend or a family member, that you have this viewpoint on something, but it’s not always forever. So Joanne and Morgan shared philosophies until Joanne kind of grew out of it, and it just felt really right that that would kind of piss Morgan off. When I paired off with my husband, Simon—
Sara: What is this “paired off”? I’ve never heard you use this term.
Erin: Really? [Shrugs] I don’t know. But when Simon and I got together, Sara was very supportive and connected to him, and we didn’t have that issue.
Sara: But in life it’s hard when you’re accustomed to a certain dynamic and that dynamic shifts. Like, Erin hasn’t been to my house in two years. Normally, she’d be done with work like, “I’m coming over.” She’ll cook me dinner, she’ll put my kids to bed. She’s literally not been in my house for a year and that’s an adjustment—
Erin: Because I had a baby.
You both have been creative partners for most of your adult lives, but do obstacles in your dynamic still arise?
Sara: There’s no push-and-pull power dynamic. We both have pretty clear lanes. There’s no part of me that wants to be a writer. Erin has such an innate talent that is so specific to her. I would say she has the most important comedic voice in TV right now. She can’t say that about herself, but I can and I’m so proud of her.
Erin: Yeah, but it’s taken many years for it to fall into this natural rhythm. There’s a lot that I’m not as passionate about, like the business side of things is not as exciting to me as the creative side, but you have to have both. And it’s hard for me to have a lot of different plates spinning. I get overwhelmed. I’m good at focusing on the thing in front of me, and I think Sara’s really great at reminding us to diversify and keep the train on the tracks. The writers room monopolizes a lot of my time, so I’m really unable to be in a ton of meetings and fittings for Favorite Daughter and even development stuff for other shows. So she’s really great about being able to lead the charge on that and be understanding when I have to be in the writers room.
Regina Hall’s inherent Regina Hall–ness — her magnetic fusion of poise and charisma — never shows in One Battle After Another. Instead of that usual charm, Hall is sober-minded and serious. As Deandra, a guerilla involved with a revolutionary sect called the French 75, she’s waging war against oppression, whether that’s militarized police, migrant detention camps, Christmas-worshipping white nationalists, or fascism at large. Paul Thomas Anderon’s newest movie is very much a comedy, but Hall is mostly on hand during its graver political insinuations. Even as the French 75 splinters, Deandra remains committed to the cause, resurfacing when called to shepherd the targeted teenage daughter (Chase Infiniti) of a dopey ex-radical (Leonardo DiCaprio) to what she hopes will be safety. To fail the mission would be to fail herself.
Having made her name with The Best Man, Scary Movie, and Ally McBeal, this new, different note satisfies Hall’s longtime dream of working with Anderson. They’re neighbors in Los Angeles, and one day the director approached her to say that, finally, he had a part for her. One Battle also exemplifies where Hall’s career has taken her, which is to say across genres, moods, and Hollywood whims. Even when she’s bossing her way through movies like About Last Night and Little, Hall’s well-dressed polish carries an immense likability. Soon enough, Hall will return to the Scary Movie franchise for the first time since 2006. But for now, she’s soaking in the momentum around One Battle.To her, this film is “special.”
Not every movie can be special. What’s different about this one? You certainly don’t feel it with every job. The timing of this movie feels divine.This certainly isn’t what the film is about, but it couldn’t feel more pertinent to many things that are going on. It’s also a time when we really need to laugh, and there’s a lot of levity in the way the story is told.
It’s fascinating that Paul wrote this movie in 2023 and shot it in early 2024, before our current president had been elected. And Paul actually started thinking about this project 20 years ago.
Based on Vineland. I think he was going to shoot it as early as 2017. Now it’s just incredibly — let’s call it psychic.
Did you, Paul, and the rest of the cast discuss its real-world politics while making the movie? You know, we didn’t. We discussed the world that Paul wrote about and what would feel real. We were looking for authenticity. I read books about these times in our history and what revolutionaries are like, so it was, What’s truly in the heart of these characters?What do they do? Why do they do it? How do they feel about it? I think it’s taking the judgment off of it, and that includes the Christmas Adventurers with Tony Goldwyn and all of them.
That divinity you talked about, though— in the months since you shot it, we’ve seen federal troops sent into cities, new migrant detention camps, and political violence. Was there a moment when everyone involved realized the movie’s relevance had been magnified? Just speaking for me, I certainly thought that. I think there’s no way to be informed and not see some commonalities.
What did Paul tell you about why he thought of you for this role? He didn’t say why. He said, “I have a role I would love for you to do,” and I was like, “Yes.” Deandra is not a role that I’ve played before, but I didn’t wonder why he thought of me. I’m gonna ask him. When he told me about it, he said he’d give me the script, and I didn’t get it until a few months later. I was like, Oh boy, did he forget? Did he change his mind? It’s interesting to see what someone sees in you.
Now that you’ve had such a wide-ranging career, how do you think you are perceived as an actress? I think I am perceived in many different ways. I haven’t thought about it. I don’t know! How do you perceive me? It’s a good question.
I think you’re primarily perceived as a comedic actress, but I think that canvas has broadened. One thing I notice is that you often play ambitious characters, and many of those characters are high glam. It goes back to Ally McBeal. We see it in About Last Night, Little, Black Monday, Honk for Jesus. Save Your Soul — ambitious characters who are also very presentational. Deandra, in her own way, is quite ambitious, but without the glam. That’s an interesting change. I guess you could say the same thing for Master. Maybe Support the Girls.
Yes, although your character in that film, Lisa, is very put-together in spite of what’s going on in her life. Yeah, a small-town kind of put-together. Even Dawn in Black Monday was very put-together, but she was a mess. Deandra is probably the most stoic character that I’ve ever played, coming from characters that are quite verbose or animated, like Brenda in Scary Movie. There was a lot of performance that had to exist nonverbally, and that was certainly different. With revolutionaries and what they’re doing, anything else wouldn’t feel honest.
Was there a moment when you first saw yourself in that all-black, seemingly makeup-free look? Paul did a lot of camera tests just to see what cameras he was going to use. I think my first time in wardrobe was my first test, which was with Shayna — Junglepussy — and I will say, it felt alive. Deandra is stripped of many things, but she’s strong. I was in the beginning stages of working with PTA, and that had always been something that I really wanted to do. I was about to experience a dream. And the next time we toyed with the cameras, Leo was there. It was building, and it was such a ride.
You mentioned reading about revolutionaries and this particular type of activism. What of that did you put into Deandra? I talked to people who had been a part of the Black Panthers. For me, it wasn’t about what they did. It was about, “What did you feel like, and what did you think you were doing?”Many of them were very young, and it’s a very idealistic time. You think that you’re going to be at the beginning and on the precipice of change, so I really was curious about the idealism in terms of what they were up against and who they were fighting for and how. Deandra is still part of the fight all those years later, so I used that to create her backstory. When you’re young, you kind of think you’re the first to have gone through something.
Did you come away with any grand ideas about this particular type of extremist activism? There’s something to be said about the human spirit when it believes that it is right, when you believe you have cause or reason or purpose. What was interesting in Paul’s movie is we see that, with Willa, it continues. Whatever a collective believes in, it continues. For me, it was really wonderful to meet people who fought but who believed their purpose is to do good. There was a self-righteousness that they held about it. With the French 75, we saw goodness from them, even if many times things do go wrong. I walked away with more understanding of idealism.
Tell me about your first encounter with one Leonardo DiCaprio. In real life, I saw him somewhere years ago, said hi, and that was it. When he and Teyana met, they had a big moment at Diana Ross’s birthday party. I had just seen him around. I think the first time I spoke to him was when we had our work session where we were auditioning with Chase. From then on, he was very funny, great to work with, and sweet. He was down-to-earth.
In terms of where culture has gone, it feels like there’s a sort of spiritual progression from screaming into the void at the end of Support the Girls to the all-out political scream that this movie lets out. Several years out, can you take in what that Support the Girls ending has meant to people? Gosh. Support the Girls was such a special film. In doing research, I went to a lot of those restaurants, and I was surprised to see that there did exist this familial feeling — how protective some of the female managers were and how hard-working people were. With the scream, it’s that cathartic moment that we all need. After what had happened to all of them, in those last moments, they got to be together. I didn’t necessarily know how it would resonate, but I loved the ending when I read it. I think all of us knew what that scream meant.
What did it say on the page? It just said, “They let out a scream.” I don’t know if it explained it or not, but I inherently knew what it meant. I remember when I read the script, I was thinking, Oh my goodness, what does she do? Something terrible? She’s going to steal the money. I was so used to reading that sort of thing. But they were just people, and when they screamed at the end, it’s a moment where life’s been a little bit hard. The whole film just had a sweet feeling. Ironically, Paul Thomas Anderson went to see the movie, which I gather he enjoyed. Junglepussy is in it!
I wondered if there might have been something in Support the Girls that Paul pinpointed for Deandra. That would make sense. Lisa in Support the Girls went through everything to take care of those girls, and Deandra does have a heart and a capacity to be incredibly selfless. We talked about the moment in One Battle After Another at the end when they got caught. She feels like she failed. She doesn’t have the girl anymore. That was her job. She wasn’t five steps ahead, and I think for her, she had failed the mission.
When Support the Girls came out and got all that acclaim, a lot of Oscar pundits were rooting for you to get a nomination. Was it a disappointment for that not to come to fruition? No. I had never really thought I was necessarily in the conversation. I was really happy with all the critical acclaim that the film had gotten. It would have been great, but it wasn’t anything I was disappointed by. Because it was an independent film, I was really, really thrilled to get the Gotham and Indie Spirit nominations. That was truly like the pinnacle for me because it’s an indie film.
What have you observed thus far about the early awards-season momentum that One Battle After Another is picking up? The great thing is that the critics have really responded well, and audiences who have seen it also love it. You want the people to love it. I haven’t gone beyond that, but it’s incredible to feel that amount of energy surrounding the film from the start.
One of the movies that launched your career, Scary Movie, required a type of broad comedy that I think a lot of actors probably can’t pull off. What was your audition like? I had about four or five. I had a lot of auditions. I hadn’t done a comedy. I had only done The Best Man. I had to preread for casting, and then go in for casting, and then go back, because this was when you were not submitting a tape. You had to go in person and do callbacks, and then another set of callbacks for Keenen Wayans. It was exciting. I wasn’t the first person cast. I was cast in the movie-theater scene, which was a separate scene, as Marlon’s cousin who was coming to visit. Brenda was a different character. A wonderful actress, Tamala Jones, had been cast, but Tamala couldn’t do it. They were going to offer Brenda to someone else, but the studio said, “We like this girl right here,” which was myself. Keenen combined the roles. It was a long process — months!
That feels like a tough audition to me because you might not know exactly what tone the movie is going to take until you’re making it. One scene I for sure did was the movie-theater scene. And where I talk to Cindy in the beginning and say, “She’s as fake as press-on nails.” Really, at that point, regardless of getting the movie, I just wanted to make Keenen laugh. I was a big fan of his from In Living Color. I was excited for any part that I could have gotten. I thought I was just going to go work for three or four days in the movie theater, so when I found out it was going to be run of picture, I didn’t even know what comedy was, necessarily. I didn’t know anything about intonation, and I was so green.
How did your experience of the franchise change once Keenen and Marlon left after the second movie? Yeah, that was tough. You never know what’s happening with the powers that be, but it was scary. Anna Faris and I had to just be like, “Okay.” David Zucker and Craig Mazin were great too, but it’s great to be able to go back with that history. We’ve come full circle.
The Wayans are returning for the first time since Scary Movie 2. Was their involvement crucial in your agreeing to do another one? Hm. Yes, I would say so. It was really important to have the original cast and directors back from Scary Movie 1 and 2 because that’s what made it nostalgic.
In the years since Scary Movie 5, the horror genre has really widened. Are we going to get a parody of the whole A24 elevated-horror thing? Feels like an obvious target. I don’t think so from what we’ve discussed. I signed my NDA and I should be getting something any second now.
Oh, you haven’t seen a script yet? I have seen a very early draft, but that script has since had rewrites and other ideas. It sounds amazing.
Did you really sign an NDA? Yes, I did.
Is that because this is such a high-profile franchise? Yeah, but it also is dependent on the jokes not being known.
You and I spoke in 2021 when Nine Perfect Strangers was coming out, and at the time, you told me that you were writing an anthology series that Showtime had picked up, and Barry Jenkins was attached as a producer. What’s happened with that in the years since? Yeah, that was a tough one. Barry was doing Lion King, which was great, and at the time it was at Showtime. It’s done, and we’re headed out to pitch it now to networks. Hopefully we’ll know soon where it will have a home.
When you say it was a tough one, do you mean because it didn’t come together as quickly as you might have liked? No, but we had done a lot of work and there were many changes that happened at Showtime. My executive left, and then you get it handed back to you. I think the timing for us was just tough.
We’re talked about the range you’ve shown over the years, and you said working with Paul Thomas Anderson is like living out a dream. What else are you hungry to do? If you would ask me a year ago, I certainly wouldn’t have thought about a revolutionary. I just want to be in great hands and be able to have fun. I look forward to Girls Trip 2. I want to do some jobs that are scary and out of the box. I feel like my career has been a journey, and I look forward to the journey because it’s always better than I can imagine anyway. Imagine calling and telling your agent you got a PTA film!
One Battle After Another is a loose update of the Thomas Pynchon novel, a Reagan-era satire that’s also about an ex-revolutionary tracking down his daughter after she’s kidnapped by the opposition. In addition to Inherent Vice, this is Anderson’s second Pynchon adaptation.
Anderson first met with DiCaprio about the role after wrapping Phantom Thread, but he opted to make Licorice Pizza next instead.
As Hall told the Associated Press, “She came from a good home, a loving home, [and] thought she could take that into the world. When she joined the French 75, she had a very strong awakening about the realities of life. Cut to 17 years later, she had seen things that had left a few scars. She had quite a bit of loss, but she still had a hopefulness — and a sadness.”
Teyana Taylor plays Perfidia Beverly Hills, the leader of the French 75 and girlfriend of DiCaprio’s character. “I had on this Diana Ross kind of dress, and I had [a wig on]. I was living when she was performing. I either bumped him or, like, hit him with the hair,” Taylor recently told Jimmy Fallon.
They made Scary Movie 3 and Scary Movie 4.
Hall signed a first-look deal with Showtime in 2020 while Black Monday was airing on the network. She hasn’t wanted to disclose the series’ plot publicly. In 2021, she told Vulture, “It’s kind of based on real things.”
Corey Hawkins is known for films like Straight Outta Compton, In the Heights, and The Color Purple, along with his Tony-nominated work in plays like Six Degrees of Separation and Topdog/Underdog. But Hawkins says his new film, The Man in My Basement, made him go deeper than he ever had before—and not just because he’s in almost every frame of the film.
The thriller, directed by Nadia Latif in her feature debut, is an adaptation of Walter Mosley’s novel, following a man (Hawkins) living in Sag Harbor who is put in a tricky situation when a white stranger (Willem Dafoe) asks to rent his basement for the summer. Hawkins plays Charles Blakey, who is grappling with the loss of his mother and fighting to keep their ancestral home.
Hawkins and Latif, an accomplished theater director, brought the film to the Toronto International Film Festival for its world premiere ahead of its release to select theaters on September 12 (and to Hulu later this fall). There, they talked to Vanity Fair about how it felt to see the film with an audience, what it was like to work with Dafoe, and why Hawkins decided to train for a marathon while also filming this marathon of a movie.
Vanity Fair: How did it feel to watch this film with an audience?
Nadia Latif: I’m a theater director by trade, and in my first ever professional show, I watched the opening night. The first sound cue fired three seconds late, and I sat through the whole show kind of weeping. I have never watched one of my opening nights since. That’s partly because in that moment, you realize you have to relinquish control of it, and you have to accept a certain level of chaos into your life. Loads of people asked me if I was nervous about the premiere, and I was like, “I have watched my work die on its ass in front of an audience too many times.”
The film is a finished thing; it’s now going to begin a conversation. I enjoyed it. I also sat between my family and the drunkest man who ever existed. He was there guzzling beers and eating popcorn.
That’s a pretty trippy movie to see drunk.
Latif: I think by the end he was really like, “This is not what I fucking signed up for.”
Corey Hawkins: My first opening night on Broadway, someone went to the hospital because they were on the wrong side of the stage, and we had to finish the show. [Laughs] I also just feel sometimes, like you said, once the film is finished, if I’ve seen it and I’ve been able to enjoy everybody’s work already, sometimes it’s a bit of torture to sit through. So I just listened to it last night.
This seems like a film where you can feel the audience members tensing up as they watch.
Do you ever think about your kids one day discovering the show?
My older son is at an age where kids a year or two older than him are watching, and he’s definitely seeing fans, when we’re out, expressing interest in the show. It’s been weird for him because he doesn’t know anything about it, really. I did show him a couple age-appropriate scenes. But I don’t know if he was ready yet.
In other words, he’s not watching the bachelor and bachelorette party episode.
No, we are not ready for that.
It’s unclear what will result from Laurel and John 2.0. Do you think she sees parallels between her own situation with her ex and Belly’s romantic issues?
I think that’s why Laurel was so concerned about Belly taking such a huge step at a young age. We saw in one of the other episodes Laurel talking about losing herself in her relationship with John and becoming a parent. What we’re waiting to see from Laurel and John is whether it was a relationship that’s right but just happened at the wrong time, or if this is indeed not the right relationship even though they’re trying it at a later time. We’ll just have to wait and see.
Where do you generally stand on resurrecting a past relationship?
I do think that timing is important, that sometimes it can be the right person but the wrong time. But I’m also someone that’s when it’s done, it’s done. So I can’t imagine going back to any of my past relationships, but it does happen.
Something I always find amusing about the show is thinking about how these families will functionally move forward when all is said and done. What do you think Christmas in the Conklin-Fisher universe looks like a decade from now?
I think time heals all wounds, and hopefully, hopefully, that will be true for them. I do think Laurel will always try to keep everyone together and in each other’s orbit.
A lot of group therapy in their future, I think.
For sure.
There’s been talk of a potential Laurel spin-off or prequel series. If you got to revisit the character, is there a part of her life we haven’t seen on the show yet that you’d be most interested in exploring?
I’m assuming Laurel has other friends besides Susannah, so it’d be nice to see her in other dynamics. People have asked me about a past romance between Laurel and Susannah. I never considered that. I just thought it was a very deep friendship. But then I realized what we’re seeing of their relationship is this incredibly emotional time when Susannah was sick. Laurel at her bedside constantly. So there’s probably a bit more of their connection that we were seeing in those seasons. But I imagine day-to-day, she has other friends and work colleagues. So it’d be interesting to see her move about her life.
Do you have any special plans for watching the final episodes? In New York, they’re having watch parties at bars.
I know! A friend of mine sent me a video. I’ve been thinking it would be really fun to drop into one of those, but I’m also a little scared.
Security may be required.
I’m trying to convince my friends to go or maybe FaceTime me so I can experience it. But it’s incredible that people are getting together to watch these episodes.
How has playing Laurel influenced what you want to do next as an actor?
I’ve had such a wonderful time playing Laurel. I feel like she’s a really solid person, messy at times, but very loyal and honest. The desire of actors after you’ve done a certain kind of role is to do something that’s the opposite. My husband, [Louis Ozawa], is an actor as well. He’s always doing action and shooting guns, and no one ever wants to give me one [of those projects]. It’d be fun to be a villain—do some action or broad comedy. It’s a natural inclination to want to try new things.
This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.
In an alternate reality, Maude Apatow might be practicing her serve instead of learning lines for the third season of Euphoria. “My dad was a ball boy growing up. He was really into tennis,” she said of her father, director Judd Apatow. “I think he wanted my sister and I to play tennis when we were younger. It never really stuck.”
Maude Apatow in the Moët & Chandon box at Arthur Ashe Stadium.
Liam McGurl
Although Judd didn’t exactly get his wish, a love of tennis certainly transferred to his eldest daughter. In an exclusive conversation with Vanity Fair, Apatow shared her appreciation for the sport in the Moët & Chandon box at Arthur Ashe Stadium on the first day of the US Open. “I haven’t been to the Open before,” she shared, excitedly. Her first trip to the USTA Billie Jean King National Tennis Center saw 19-year-old rising star Learner Tien face off against one of the all-time greats, 38-year-old Novak Djokovic, who currently holds the all-time Grand Slam record with 24 wins. “Djokovic is playing, so that’s pretty cool,” she said.
Apatow has had a pretty cool year herself, with a memorable cameo as the well-meaning gentrifier Bethany in the hit comedy One of Them Days, starring Grammy-winner SZA and Keke Palmer. “I only worked a couple of days, but it was so fun,” Apatow said. “Keke is a comic genius. She can improvise better than anyone I have ever seen in my entire life.”
While Lerner and Djokovic rallied back and forth, Apatow was joined by a slew of up-and-coming stars. Ben Ahlers, star of The Gilded Age who is sometimes affectionately known as “Clock Twink,” sat arm in arm with his girlfriend, Tony nominee and Grotesquerie star Michaela Diamond. Together, they chatted with Duster actor Rachel Hilson about the match and their upcoming projects. Next to them, influencer Tinx was caught on camera mouthing “That sucks” after Djokovic lost a nail-biter of a point against his 19-year old opponent—which she immediately posted to her Instagram story. Wunderkind chef and tennis aficionado Flynn McGarry was locked into the match despite the fact that his second restaurant, Cove, is set to open this week in the West Village.
Their box was conspicuously devoid of Honey Deuces—the Open’s signature pink vodka cocktail with honeydew melons shaped like tennis balls. Apatow and her compatriots chose to sip on complimentary Moët Champagne instead. “[I] love to celebrate with Champagne,” Apatow said. “It’s really special to break out Champagne at the end of something.”
Michaela Diamond, Ben Ahlers, Rachel Hilson, and Apatow and guests at the U.S. Open
Joey Andrew
Apatow enjoyed her bubbly as a well-deserved night out amidst filming the highly anticipated and highly under wraps third season of HBO’s Euphoria from director Sam Levinson. “We’ve been shooting since the end of January, and we’re getting close to finishing,” Apatow says. “It’s been really nice to see everyone together. It’s been years since we shot the last season.” Those years that have passed since the second season of Euphoria, which aired in 2022, are reflected in the script, which makes a bold leap into the future.
“It’s five years in the future. We’re all navigating our adult lives,” Apatow says of season three. While she’s not at liberty to release details as to what is in store for her character, aspiring playwright Lexi Howard, Apatow can say that she thinks Levinson made “the right call” by allowing the characters to age out of high school. “I like that it’s growing up with us,” she says. “From what I’ve seen and read so far, I think people will really like it.”
Modern-horror cinema’s most heterodox event took place on Saturday night, when two blonde Whitneys and A24 hosted dueling screenings at a multiplex within the southernmost border of Salt Lake City proper. The film was Heretic, directed by Scott Beck and Bryan Woods, about two Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints missionaries, Sister Barnes (Sophie Thatcher) and Sister Paxton (Chloe East), who knock on the door of a suburban Colorado house one inclement afternoon hoping to baptize the homeowner, Mr. Reed (Hugh Grant), into their faith.
Within a makeshift chapel behind locked doors, Mr. Reed lectures the missionaries on Radiohead’s litigious copywriting strategy; Monopoly and its unsung predecessor, The Landlord’s Game; and bird-headed deities until coercing the young women to choose their escape from his house of escalating horrors either through a door marked “DISBELIEF” or one alongside it marked “BELIEF.” (Spoiler: Neither presents an easy egress.)
Inside this packed cineplex, the screening’s snaking line was filled with only the truest disciples of horror film and/or Utah-based reality television. Some people I spoke to had been invited to the event by A24 directly, including members of the Lost & Found Club, a women- and genderqueer-led 501(c)(3) that aims to bring community to people who have left the LDS church in young adulthood. But most people waiting in the standby line for tickets had to rely on faith alone that they’d make it to that celestial kingdom of a screening room and experience the rapture of an A24 film presented by a woman named Whitney (with a complimentary free small popcorn and small fountain drink).
The event’s whole shtick played off the confrontational, dueling doors that have been the centerpiece of the film’s marketing: If an attendee was handed a DISBELIEF ticket, they attended the screening hosted by Whitney Rose, the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City cast member who was raised in the church but has since left it. If they got a BELIEF ticket, then they went to the screening hosted by Whitney Leavitt, a practicing Mormon and cast member of The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.
The LDS church has expressed concern about Heretic as its November 8 release nears, which is also the date on which the film takes place. In a statement provided to the Mormon-run newspaper Deseret News, church spokesperson Doug Anderson said, “Heretic portrays the graphically violent treatment of women, including people of faith, and those who provide volunteer service to their communities. Any narrative that promotes violence against women because of their faith or undermines the contributions of volunteers runs counter to the safety and well-being of our communities.”
I hear what the church is saying about violence against women — Heretic has a scene involving an elderly woman’s arthritic fingers and a blueberry pie that is, while slightly less depraved than Call Me by Your Name’s sequence with Timmy Chalamet and a peach, far more psychically scarring than the hand scene in A24’s Talk to Me. For what it’s worth, I didn’t find Heretic anti-Mormon. If anything,the filmwas overwhelmingly anti-smug British guy.
Rose, who later told me that she was channeling her “inner missionary, Sister Rose,” wore a gray tweed short skirt/long jacket combo with a sheer turtleneck; a “Sword of the Spirit” necklace from her jewelry line, Prism, and a pair of Louboutins. Leavitt, who was one-week postpartum, wore a 1980s Jessica McClintock–inspired minidress from Asos. Her teeny-tiny, adorable one-week-old son, Billy Gene, and her husband/at-home scene partner, Conner Leavitt, watched her admiringly from across the room.
Each woman had a designated theater to introduce the film, and right before, Rose invited me and my plus-one to join her for a shot of tequila to calm her nerves. (It was Casamigos, not her co-star/usual rival Lisa Barlow’s Vida brand, and I love drama more than I hate heartburn.) Before we knocked it back, Rose called out for Leavitt and anyone else interested to join us for a toast. Leavitt waved Rose off, but did spend time with her Mormon Wives co-star/fellow saint Jennifer Affleck and her husband, Zac, had showed up in the spare theater being used as a greenroom, and they were busy cooing over the new baby. Later, the internet told me that most of Leavitt’s castmates had been at a Sabrina Carpenter concert that night without her.
In a joint interview before the screening, I spoke to both Whitneys about their reactions to the film and the proliferation of content about Utah women in the last few years. BELIEF and DISBELIEF embodied with bobs, sitting right next to each other in reclining theater chairs.
So, first of all, I just want to know how your involvement with this event came to be. Online, on Reddit, and elsewhere, this screening became a must-attend event shrouded in secrecy.
Whitney Leavitt: Did it really?
Yes. People didn’t even know how to get tickets and were apparently calling the movie theater, getting nowhere. How did it all come together?
Whitney Rose: I just got a call from a friend who said, “Can I have a friend reach out to your agent? Someone at A24 is a big fan of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City and Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. It was intense because I posted about the screening and shared the tag from A24, and all of a sudden, my DMs, my text messages, and my emails were blowing up with everyone wanting tickets.
There’s something happening nationally right now where Utah is blowing up — not as a state but as a concept. And there’s something A24-ish about our fascination. Why are people looking at women in Utah with such fascination?
Leavitt: I think it’s a lot of things besides our religion that happens culturally in Utah. Like, we’ve got our soda drinks. Yeah, we’ve got our “Utah Curl.” I don’t know if you’ve heard about it.
Rose: And I love all of your castmates a lot, but I despise the Utah Curl. You gotta curl your hair to the end.
Leavitt: Or get a bob!
I’ll say this. I couldn’t tell any of your Mormon Wives castmates on the show apart until about four episodes in. Besides you, Whitney. Because they all had that same hair. All gorgeous women, to be sure, of course …
Leavitt: It’s a very trendy look. I think people were fascinated that we all looked a certain way, dressed a certain way, ate a certain way, and drank a certain way. But then, obviously, people were fascinated by the religion side of it too. And I also do appreciate both of our shows presenting a different perspective of the Mormon religion. Because I just feel like, worldwide, everyone thinks of Mormons in a certain way, right? But then you get to see a different side.
Rose: I echo everything Whitney says. When you hear about Mormonism, your mind instantly goes to all of the things that they practiced in the past, like polygamy and multiple wives. Mormonism in and of itself, from the outside, looks strange. But when I was living in it, I didn’t view it that way. It’s just so normal to us, especially growing up here in Utah, right? Whitney and I grew up in what’s called “the bubble” of Utah County, and it’s just that everyone is the same. We all think the same, act the same, and have the same friends. All the moms drive the same cars. I mean, Mormon Wives shows that. They all have the same hair, except for Whit.
Leavitt: The Utah Curl.
Rose: Yeah, and I’m so glad that Whitney is paving the way there with her bob. It’s just fascinating when you have such a dense population of one religion and one culture. What people don’t realize is that there are so many different iterations and subcultures within that culture.
Heretic has gotten a lot of pushback from the Mormon church. What is it so afraid of?
Leavitt: Maybe they’re afraid of the filmmakers putting out false speculation or false doctrines. But when I watched, there’s nothing doctrinal about the church in it. Of course, there are Mormon missionaries, but I appreciated Hugh Grant’s character just giving a perspective of religion in general.
Rose: I think the fear is that there are a lot of things that we don’t talk about or are told not to talk about within the church, whether they be sacred or things that were once true in the past but are no longer true in modern revelation. They’re scared of what’s going to be in it and what that means for their members.
For me, this is easier to talk about because I’m not a member. I’ve removed my name from the church records. It’s just exposure. It’s fear of the unknown; it’s lack of control over one’s own narrative. It’s the same fear I have being on reality TV: We just show up and watch our edits.
It’s fascinating to see you two here together like this, talking about the same faith from such different perspectives. I consider RHSLC to be the wackiest comedy on TV. And some of the relationship plotlines on Mormon Wives are the most depressing television I’ve ever seen. It was often hard for me to watch. And now, I’m about to see a whole different take on the Mormon genre within a horror film.
Rose: The writers and directors are brilliant with their use of horror and psychological thrill. It’s a cat-and-mouse game of: What do I believe? Do I really not? Am I just doing this because I was told to? It’s fascinating. I watched it last night on my laptop, and I was like this the whole time:
[Rose mimics raising her paws up to her chest height expectantly, the laying-in-bed-watching-movies equivalent of being on the edge of her seat.]
I was going, “Oh my God, I relate to this!”
You didn’t serve a mission, correct?
Rose: No, I didn’t, but I channeled my inner missionary with my look tonight.
There’s a saints-sinners binary going on at this event, which was also a big part of Mormon Wives. Growing up Mormon in Utah County, did you feel confined to that binary of either being a saint or a sinner? Organized religion leaves very little room for dabbling in 60 percent of one thing and 40 percent of the other.
Rose: From my perspective, the black-and-white was really hard. By design, religion in Utah is the culture. I was raised here, and people would know if you weren’t wearing your garments, people saw you at Starbucks, and people would know if I was drinking a glass of wine at dinner. By design, I didn’t feel I could live in a gray area. Now, this was 17 years ago. A lot has changed. Even us just sitting here together with such polar-opposite perspectives — I think Utah has evolved. You can interpret religion with your relationship to God versus the institution of religion.
You’ve explored this on your show for years. I’m sure you’re aware of the memes. I talked to a Brigham Young University linguist about your “hilling” journeyand the “fill/feel” merger present in the speech of millennial women in Utah, and I’ve never gotten such a response from people before about anything I’ve written.
Rose: That was like my top moment of a Housewife. I’m no longer LDS, but I come from a long line of Mormon pioneers. My family trekked across the entire United States to get here. I get so bad with words.
When the linguist at BYU [David Ellingson Eddington, professor emeritus of Linguistics] talked to you for that article, I was so proud. I was so validated. I feel so seen. Someone understands my dialect and the way I talk.
This post contains spoilers about the sixth episode of The Penguin, “Gold Summit.”
“People will tell you where they’ve gone / They’ll tell you where to go / But till you get there yourself, you never really know,” Joni Mitchell sings in 1976’s “Amelia”—words that Cristin Milioti found herself sobbing to at the 80-year-old’s triumphant recent Hollywood Bowl concert.
“I feel like I’m still recovering, because I cried for the entire three hours,” she tells Vanity Fair from her New York apartment. “‘Amelia’ is my favorite, and I couldn’t believe she sang it—I completely fell to pieces.”
Milioti wasn’t alone in her rapture. “Everywhere you looked, there was someone crying. Then you would catch each other’s eyes, touch your heart, and give each other a nod. It feels like witnessing a miracle—someone who changed music and has certainly whispered in my ear throughout my entire life helped me understand myself and the world. It felt very holy.”
While at the star-studded concert, Milioti received some admiration of her own. “I had a lot of really lovely interactions at that show from people who really are loving The Penguin,” the actor says of her lauded performance in the HBO series as Sofia Falcone, a mobster princess turned murderous villain facing off against an unrecognizable Colin Farrell as Oz Cobb. “I feel very protective of her,” Milioti says of Sofia, who after being tortured for more than a decade in an Arkham prison for a crime she didn’t commit, kills the family members who lied to keep her confined. Homicide aside, “I am just in love with her.”
Bringing the role to life has been a dream assignment for the 39-year-old actor, who long before she ever auditioned for a comic-book film, dressed as Catwoman for Halloween. The idea of Sofias running around this year makes Milioti’s face light up. “I get emotional just talking about it. I would be so blown away,” she says. “That would be a lot to take in, but I would gladly take it in.”
Just as Joni sings of a winding journey in “Amelia,” Milioti has been charting her own path since dropping out of New York University after a single year. She launched herself into a Tony nomination for 2012’s Once, the Broadway musical based on the Oscar-winning Irish film. That star-making turn led to roles big (the titular mother in How I Met Your Mother) and small (30 Rock’s “Very Sexy Baby”), but always memorable. Juicy parts alongside Leonardo DiCaprio in The Wolf of Wall Street, Andy Samberg in Palm Springs, and Jesse Plemons in an episode of Black Mirror followed. It’s all led to the most high-profile project of Milioti’s career—no false alarms in sight.
The third season of the animated series The Legend of Vox Machina is now streaming in full, and the Critical Role role-playing team is ready to talk about it — without digging into spoilers just yet.
At the annual Fantastic Fest film festival in Austin, Texas, Polygon sat down at the table with Legend of Vox Machina writer-producer Travis Willingham (the voice of goliath barbarian Grog Strongjaw) and writers Marisha Ray (half-elf druid Keyleth), and Liam O’Brien (multiclass elf Vax’ildan) to unpack their personal “regerts” and wins from The Legend of Vox Machina season 3 — and consider how their approach to the show has changed over three seasons of growing involvement and growing confidence.
This interview has been edited for clarity and concision.
Image: Prime Video
Polygon: By the time you started making season 3 of Legend of Vox Machina, how had the process or your level of input changed in terms of making sure the show got your characters right?
Marisha Ray: We are deeply, deeply in the weeds — especially Travis and Sam Riegel, leading the charge every step of the way. The rest of us have full control over our character voices. A lot of times, we’ll go into the writers room — we start every season being like, These are the moments that it would be a dream to hit, with acknowledgement that we might not get there, but trying to honor a lot from the campaign as much as possible.
I do feel like it’s gotten smoother, in the sense that the wheels are greased now. It’s much more seamless. The writers we work with, the artists as well, they’re getting to know these characters as deeply as we have. So I think the process has become a lot more of a well-oiled machine.
Liam O’Brien: I think that Sam and Travis especially have layers and layers of experience now doing it, so nothing throws them. [To Travis] Well, I don’t know if things threw you — but you just are so experienced with it now that it’s that well-oiled machine Marisha talked about. Marisha and I have joined the fold as writers on the show, so we’ve just gotten more involved in that way. [Marisha and Travis applaud lightly]
O’Brien: And we’ve looked for ways which you’ll find in this current season — after the Vox Machina campaign ended on our channel, we continued to tell stories, and the world and history just ballooned outward and became more dense. And we’ve enjoyed finding little elements from other places to enrich the Vox Machina story. That history exists, so it makes sense that it would be in [the show].
Willingham: Yeah, I think in seasons 1 and 2, we were trying to figure out how we would squish 25-plus hours of gameplay down into six hours, and we’ve figured that out now. So that’s good. And the cast — they are planted in the writers room like snipers. It is great to see them listen to ideas that are being thrown out, storyline changes that are being entertained, and then coming up with dialogue on the fly and other ideas. [It’s great] just watching that creativity spark back and forth across the room.
But as Liam said, I think what’s most interesting about season 3 is that we’re starting to pull in other things from different parts of the universe, to really tee up where the new version of the story can go. I think season 1 and 2 were about delivering the Briarwood arc and setting up the Chroma Conclave arc in a way that was very close to faithful to the canonical representation from the livestream. And now we’re trying to unsettle our audience a little bit, trying to make ’em guess about where things are going.
Can any of you think of anything you sniped? Have you pointed at a change or a line of dialogue and said, “Oh, I don’t think my character would do that, or say that”?
Willingham: All the time. All the time. I would say everyone is so dialed into their characters that as we’re exploring these things — it can be as small as a dialogue tweak or change. Taliesin Jaffe is probably one of the best at making his lines be as Percival de Rolo as possible. But we’ll also give arc notes, emotional notes, we’ll ask questions, give suggestions. We give action suggestions, sometimes: “My character wouldn’t fight up close like this, they’d want to stay farther away.” “Don’t forget about this thing that I used a lot in the game.” All sorts of stuff.
ScreenshotImage: Prime Video
Ray: Yeah, I think we’re in a very unique situation — and the writers will tell you the same thing. It’s not often when working on an adaptation that you get not only the executive producers and creators of the story in the room, but also the people who created the characters.
I think early on, there was probably a little bit of nerves from some of the writers on that, and being like, [long, nervous groan] I don’t want to mess this up. How much freedom do I have?? There was a learning curve for us as well, to know that some things that were very nuanced, or took an incredibly long amount of time to develop in the campaign, you kind of need to nail in one act of an episode.
Willingham: And now [the writers are] just irreverent. They don’t care what we think!
O’Brien: It was a learning curve. I remember early in the process of making the animated shows, going, Nnnnng! I’m holding my baby so tightly! But at this point, it’s proven, and the heart and the essence of the story is so beautifully wrought that I think all of us were able to relax into it. On the flip side, with the writers, I multiple times remember writers besides us saying, “It’s so great to have—” Well, at first it was, Oh my God, the creators are here. If you’re writing Snow White, you don’t typically have Snow White in the room going, “That’s not what I would do.” So it’s like having a creative Clippy in the room, which you can either listen to or—
Willingham: Or “Shut up!”
Ray: That [reference is] so 2005 of you.
“You seem to be trying to write a romance between these two characters!”
O’Brien: “Have you considered dying instead?”
ScreenshotImage: Amazon Video
In the spirit of killing your darlings, is there anything your character did in the campaign that you were sorry to lose in the adaptation?
Willingham: We haven’t touched on it, and I don’t know if we will, but — Grog’s bag of holding from the campaign at this point had accumulated a grotesque number of body parts. There were orc limbs, there were all sorts of monster appendages and guts, different rocks for no reason, pieces of armor. And, y’know, it’s not refrigerated in there. So things would come out in, as Matthew Mercer likes to say, a slaw. We never quite found the right moment to make that bag as disgusting as it possibly could have been. It’s just an 80-gallon bucket of clam chowder.
O’Brien: Because things are so condensed, there have been many guest players at our table over the years that we haven’t found a way [to get onto the show]. Like, Felicia Day as Lyra the wizard stands out in my memory. We’ve pulled in a few of those people, but there just is not a lot of real estate, so we’ve had to be economical with everything.
Ray: Yeah, that’s probably the biggest tragedy. Same with NPCs. You can’t always fit all of ’em. Sometimes we try to combine NPCs, or moments, even. We haven’t gone into anything with the Trickfoots with Pike, and how they kind of came out of nowhere, and were not great people. So there’s stuff like that. Maybe we’ll see if we can honor it down the road. There are even lines — I was actually just talking about this with one of our writers the other day. There are a few lines, especially of stuff that Taliesin had said in-game, where you’re like, “We’ve gotta get that in there.” And sometimes even with individual one-liners, you’re like, “But how?” [Everyone laughs] “It’s not relevant!” You try to find it, though.
O’Brien: Sometimes we try to capture something that took a couple of episodes or games to get through, and it’s just a single frame of animation. I’m just trying to give a nod to it.
Image: Prime Video
What’s the flip side of that? What did your character gain in this season that you were excited about?
Ray: I mean, I think the beauty of what we’re doing is, you can show a lot of perspectives or things that might’ve happened that we didn’t really act out in the game. In campaign one, there was a time where we kind of took an in-game yearlong break where the characters went off, did other things, accomplished some personal drives that they had, and we get to see that. So with Keyleth, you get to see her journey to the Earth Ashari, and go through her Earth Ashari trials.
That was something in the campaign that we just kind of went, This happened! Now she can turn into an Earth elemental! Isn’t that cool? So I think being able to flesh out — when you’re playing Dungeons & Dragons and you level up, a lot of times, it’s picking a spell out of a book and writing it down and you’re like, I can just do that now. But the show allows us to explore how those characters get those abilities and grow. I think that’s always fun.
O’Brien: I just like Vax’s continuing evolution in his relationship with the Matron of Ravens, and where he ends the season, where it’s less of a cat being dragged kicking and screaming into a bathtub, which was kind of season 2 for him, and more coming to terms with it.
Willingham: The thing I love isn’t necessarily for Grog. But for Pike Trickfoot — Ashley Johnson wasn’t around very much [in season 2] because of her shooting on a show in New York. And so she was constantly in and out, and she would miss parts of the storyline. So we took an opportunity to pad her storyline [in season 3] and really bring her more into the way season 3 develops. In future seasons, we really tee her up nicely for a bit more of a meatier bone to chew. And she’s such a force of nature that putting the screws to Ashley is always going to be really fun to watch. So I think that’s the thing I like the most.
O’Brien: I’ll also toss in that what I love about season 3, is the progression of the romantic threads, where they go, how they relate to each other. Where they end in this campaign is pretty incredible.
ASMR videos started as a fringe section of YouTube, but the industry has grown exponentially in the last decade — rough estimates say there are at least 25 million ASMR videos on YouTube alone, coming from at least half a million channels dedicated to the craft. In the last five years or so, ASMR videos and their creators have increasingly entered public consciousness, despite common misconceptions about what ASMR really is.
For some creators and viewers, ASMR just means whispering — but ASMR videos can be anything designed to elicit autonomous sensory meridian response, a tingling feeling in the brain that some people have in reaction to specific visual or audio triggers. ASMR fans (myself included) say that response helps them relax, stave off panic attacks, and most notably, fall asleep. A note on vernacular: The ASMR community uses the acronym in a lot of ways, including as a noun that refers to any content that elicits ASMR. For instance, I might tell my husband, “No, I can’t watch TV with you tonight; I’m falling asleep to ASMR.”
Gibi ASMR, aka Gina (who does not share her full name online), found early success with her ASMR YouTube channel, which she launched in June 2016. Known for her funny role-play, her costumes and cosplays, and her fast-paced videos, 29-year-old Gibi (pronounced “jee-bee”) has amassed a huge community over the last eight years. Her videos often turn up on YouTube’s homepage, or you might see her pop up as a guest in other YouTubers’ videos. Now, as her channel exceeds 5 million subscribers, she’s releasing her magnum opus: The entire movie Shrek, but in ASMR.
Image: Gibi ASMR
Image: Gibi ASMR
The full-length, live-action fan film premieres on YouTube on Wednesday. Gibi said that ideally, fans can set up Shrek and Shrek ASMR side by side and they’ll be perfectly in sync, shot for shot. For instance, where DreamWorks animated Donkey (Eddie Murphy) and Shrek (Mike Myers) walking through a sunflower field together, Gibi and her team filmed B-roll with paper cutouts in a diorama-like setup.
This isn’t the first time Gibi has made an entire movie in ASMR. Her initial feature-length film, which premiered on YouTube three years ago, should give you an inkling of her and her fandom’s taste — it’s Bee Movie. She started that project after hundreds of days of one of her subscribers asking for it in the comments, then she figured out what she was doing during the process of making the film. Gibi told Polygon that Shrek was a natural next full-length for her and her subscribers. But for this production — which Gibi said she lovingly considers to have “school play vibes” — she had a much better idea of how to make the project work.
She told us that she and her team — editors, assistants, and her husband/manager, Ben — spent months scripting out the ASMR version of the film, creating shot lists, and determining which roles Gibi herself would play. Then, she cast her fellow ASMRtists (a common term for ASMR creators) in the important roles. She and her team spent the summer filming, with her as Shrek, of course, and a few in-person shoots with other important roles, like Batala from Batala’s ASMR as Donkey.
Image: Gibi ASMR
Image: Gibi ASMR
She’s kept her fans up to date throughout this process, including a video of her practicing her Shrek makeup and Instagram posts about the editing progress. She’s also opened up to her fans about her pregnancy along the way. She’s spent the last several months racing to finish editing the film before her first child is born: “NO, PLEASE STAY IN THERE LITTLE BUDDY, WE’RE NOT DONE WITH SHREK YET… KEEP COOKING…” she wrote in the description of her Oct. 2 upload, “ASMR What’s in my Hospital Bag?”
Polygon sat down with Gibi — who also co-owns ASMR-focused talent group Mana with her husband — for a video interview in August. We talked about ASMR’s recent growth in popularity, the monoculture around Shrek, her success as a YouTuber, and of course, Shrek ASMR.
This interview has been edited for concision and clarity.
Polygon: What’s it been like to watch ASMR become a familiar, common word after spending so much time having to explain it every time you talk to somebody about it?
Gibi: It’s been really refreshing to finally have ASMR be a household term. […] I remember that vividly as a high schooler, figuring out that ASMR was a thing. And then even when I started my own channel, which was maybe six years after I even discovered what [ASMR] was, I had to explain what it was to so many people. I mean, my parents, my parents’ friends, my friends, my boyfriend at the time, who’s now my husband — and it’s his full-time job, working with creators and ASMR people.
I frequently find that when I talk to people about ASMR, they think it’s a sexual thing. Have you found this? And can you speak to why there’s that misconception?
When I first started doing interviews talking about what ASMR was, that was 100% the second question I would get: “Is it a sex thing?” Because people just aren’t used to a lot of vulnerability and feelings and being comforted and having closeness with somebody without it being sexual. […] And the ASMR industry, I guess, does tend to be dominated by women, which, again, is not common in anything in the world. And I think, again, we kind of get targeted as, Oh, well, if it’s a bunch of women, it must be a sex thing. “All we’re good for” kind of thing, which is really unfortunate.
I can definitely describe it as a virtual massage. If someone had never heard of what a massage was in their life and you said, “Well, you get into a dark room with a stranger, you take off your clothes, and then they rub your body. It feels really good. It’s not sexual, though,” you’d be like, “No, I don’t believe you.”
That’s such a good point.
A couple of actual studies have been done that show that people who experience ASMR have physiological responses to it, including a lowering of heart rate and things like that, that are quite literally the direct opposite of sexual arousal. So it’s nice to have science back that up.
Right. You’re trying to fall asleep, not the opposite. So on to Shrek. Let’s talk about the origin of the Shrek videos. I think maybe six years ago was the first time you posted a Shrek video. Tell me about the process of deciding to do that, specifically undertaking such a huge time investment in terms of the makeup.
It’s a very long story. Oh, let’s see — the highlights. I really love challenging projects and kind of following something that sounds fun to me. And I also really love interacting with my community. And there was one viewer years ago who started a comment thread, I guess, or trend. He said, “Day one of asking Gibi to do the entire Bee Movie.” […] I’m like, That’s actually really funny. And he kept it up for over a hundred days.
I think he just wanted me to do a Bee Movie role-play. But I was like, I’ll do the whole movie shot for shot. […] I don’t think anyone had ever, before that, recreated an entire movie in ASMR, but it’s fun to explore something that we all like, or are interested in, in our own medium. […] I made the Bee Movie, and because there were so many parts in the Bee Movie, I thought it would be a really good time to invite other people in the community to play cameos and play roles.
And it was so much fun. After it was done, it was a really big success, and people wanted more. And the natural progression was, obviously they wanted Shrek. If there’s anything else in this world that the internet loves more than the Bee Movie, it’s going to be Shrek, because I think the Bee Movie is like a meme. […] But Shrek is very unironically such a good movie. […] Everyone loves Shrek. I keep talking to people about what I’m working on like, “Do you know Shrek?” “Oh my god. I love Shrek.” Old people, people who aren’t American. […] It’s maybe a perfect movie.
The global unifier is Shrek. Everyone loves Shrek. I knew that this one would be much harder than the Bee Movie, because of the scope of the movie, and the makeup — and the fact that I was doing another one, I had to make it better. I had to go farther. So I knew this would be harder. I didn’t know how hard it was going to be, but we’re in too deep now.
I actually set it as a charity goal during one of my charity streams. I said, “Listen, if we hit this charity goal, I will do Shrek.” […] And I had already been working on it, because I was like, I think this might be inevitable. So many, many months were just the pre-production. […] And we’re in the filming stage now, and luckily, while I’m filming, my editor Dennis has been editing. […] It’s like we have a mini little production company putting this on.
It’s basically an indie film, what you’re producing.
It’s almost 80 other ASMR creators who have lent their time and talent doing cameos and other roles.
Image: Gibi ASMR
Image: Gibi ASMR
I’m excited to see who’s in there. As far as casting goes, did you cast based on what your participants wanted to play, or did you have specific ASMRtists in mind for specific roles?
What I found with the Bee Movie and what I implemented again in Shrek was, the best move is to let people cast themselves. So I would reach out to someone and say, “Take a look at all these characters. Tell me who you want, and I’m going to wait until you tell me before I send it on to the next person.” […] It took two weeks to cast, just because I was reaching out to everyone. I didn’t want people to have to compete for a role or anything like that.
And are you controlling what type of ASMR they’re incorporating in order to achieve that scene? Or are you kind of just saying, “Use your favorite triggers, do whatever you want”?
Our main goal is to be as close to the film as possible, because I want to be able to play the original Shrek along with our rendition of Shrek, and it matches up perfectly. We’re just doing it in whispering, and anytime we’re interacting with an object, it’s going to be quiet. So I filmed a tutorial for everybody, wrote out a bunch of instructions, et cetera, and then cut out everyone’s scenes, gave everyone’s scripts with their scenes and parts highlighted.
So I say, “Here’s your character’s folder. You’ve got your scripts in there, you’ve got your clips in there, you’ve got everything you need.” And costumes — if they needed to buy any costumes or props or anything, I covered that. Otherwise, they were free to do whatever they wanted, however they’re interpreting it, however they want to look. And I love seeing what people come up with for their costumes and their sets and stuff. It’s very funny.
So are these people getting paid?
It’s definitely a passion project. It’s fun for a lot of people, and again, I’m so thankful for their time and their effort. So I was like, “If you buy anything for this, I swear to God, you better let me reimburse you. Please don’t spend too much time or energy on it. It’s silly. It’s supposed to be silly. It’s not that serious.” But for somebody like […] Donkey, I reached out to [Batala’s ASMR] and said, “Hey, you can play whatever part you want, but I would love you for Donkey. […] This is going to be a paid role.”
Because it was five days of filming. Donkey has so many lines. He’s in the entire movie. I cannot in good conscience ask anyone to do this for free. […] Whereas the rest of the movie, hopefully everyone was able to do it in a day or a sitting. Some people went really all out.
I’m not trying to do the exposure thing, but also, you clearly have millions of subscribers.
No, it’s very valid. Doing collaborations with other channels is a great way to get your channel out there.
Image: Gibi ASMR
What was one of the hardest scenes to film?
I had to choreograph and shot-list the choreography for the Merry Men scene, with Robin Hood and all of his dancing Merry Men. So that was a whole scene that, for example, my assistant Morgan — I was like, “You just have to take scene 27.” […] So she filmed herself dancing every single part so that she could show each — Merry Man 1, Merry Man 2, Merry Man 3 — exactly what you’re doing. Because we have to cut this; everyone has to be in sync. We’re sending this out to eight different people who are filming in their own homes. But it has to look cohesive. So that was a ton of work.
And then Fiona’s fight scene, right after that, was crazy. I’m pregnant. I’m like, 20 weeks pregnant.
Oh my god, I forgot! Congratulations.
Yeah, thank you. I’m filming a fight scene as Fiona. I’m doing a spinning jump kick in my studio, pregnant, and I’m just like, What am I? It’s fine. And I looked great, so no regrets.
Is this the biggest project you’ve ever done?
This is definitely the biggest project I’ve ever done, and I’ve done quite a few large projects. I think the Bee Movie took me a good couple months. I remember it being a large ordeal and saying that I would never do it again.
Here we are. I really underestimated this one, but I feel so passionately about making it good and doing justice to a movie that people love so much.
What are your experiences with Shrek?
I loved Shrek as a kid. My family and I, we would watch movies a lot, and Shrek was one that was on repeat for sure. It was just different, and it was funny, and it was so quotable and so relatable. Somehow you’re relating to an ogre and a princess and a talking donkey, and it’s just good every time you watch it.
And as I got older and older, I’d go back and rewatch my old childhood favorites and stuff. Some stuff you just like because it’s nostalgic, but Shrek was one of those where you watch it as an adult and you’re like, This movie is genuinely so good and so funny. Again, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve watched Shrek at this point. I know every single line by heart, but some of them still make me laugh out loud.
Image: Gibi ASMR
Is there a copyright issue with filming an entire movie shot for shot?
Not that we know of. It’s obviously very transformative. A lot of the copyright issue lies with the music, so obviously we’re not using any of the music. […] I would be scared for DreamWorks to see this production, but I hope they see it for what it is, which is a love letter to Shrek.
Everyone was like, “Gibi, you manifested Shrek 5.” And I’m like, “Sorry, you guys manifested it.” Because it’s not a coincidence we chose to do Shrek as our big movie project. It’s because it’s so beloved and because everyone — everyone — wants more Shrek. It hasn’t aged out. […] I’m so ready. I’m so pumped. I think it’s clear, the world’s attitude toward the Shrek franchise. I just kind of miss them. I just wonder what they’re up to. […] There’s a whole Shrek subreddit, you know.
And is the plan to keep going with your channel? You’re about to have a kid, and I assume your life is going to change a lot.
I always said, “If people are still watching, I’ll keep filming.”
I hope so. Maybe the-back-of-baby’s-head ASMR. […] It’s really cool, because my audience has been with me for the past eight years, and a lot of stuff has happened since then. Moved a couple of times, got engaged, got married, got a dog, had another dog. Big life changes and stuff. That’s one of my favorite things — being a viewer and a consumer of other people’s channels, being a part of that kind of community. The longevity of some people’s online presence is crazy. And it’s crazy to know that I’m one of those people.
Since Polygon is a video game website, I always like to ask people if you’re playing anything right now. I’m playing Hades 2. It’s so good. I will champion the Hades franchise until I die. And I’m playing Baldur’s Gate 3 right now. […] Sometimes I dabble still in The Sims 4, but most of my time has been dedicated to Shrek.
With his blood-soaked tales of violence and vengeance like The Night Comes for Us and Headshot, Timo Tjahjanto earned a reputation as one of the world’s goriest action directors. But he doesn’t see himself that way.
Tjahjanto began his filmmaking career making slasher movies as half of the Mo brothers, teaming up with his longtime friend Kimo Stamboel. Since the end of their formal partnership, the Mo brothers have largely worked on their own projects, with Stamboel working in the horror genre and Tjahjanto primarily (but not exclusively) making violent action movies.
Tjahjanto took the action world by storm with 2018’s The Night Comes for Us, a brutal thriller led by two of Indonesian cinema’s foremost martial arts stars, Iko Uwais and Joe Taslim. The movie occasionally gets labeled as “action horror,” in spite of its fairly conventional crime-thriller narrative, because of how unflinchingly Tjahjanto depicts extreme, bone-breaking, blood-soaked violence. The stylish, carnage-filled fight sequences left a mark on action cinema other directors are still scrambling to match.
Star Aurora Ribero in The Shadow StraysImage: Netflix
His new movie, The Shadow Strays, premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival in September, and finally dropped on Netflix on Oct. 17. It follows a teenage soldier who is being trained as a member of an elite group of top-secret assassins called the Shadows. When a mission goes wrong, she’s sidelined by the Shadows and gets entangled in a dispute between her young neighbor and local gangsters. Like most Tjahjanto projects, the film features several decapitations and “gallons” of blood. (The director estimated 85% of the blood was practical — like many splatter fans, the man loves squibs.) It’s also one of 2024’s best action movies.
But Tjahjanto doesn’t consider himself a particularly gory filmmaker — he sees his movies as a way to be honest about real-world consequences of violence. A self-described “indulgent” filmmaker, Tjahjanto — wearing a Nine Inch Nails shirt and feeling “exhausted and relieved” after recently wrapping filming on the upcoming Nobody 2 — spoke with Polygon about his approach to gore in action, his cinematic influences, and sticking with practical blood when the rest of the industry is moving to CG effects.
This interview has been edited for concision and clarity.
Polygon: I think of you as one of the gorier action directors working today. Do you see yourself that way?
Timo Tjahjanto: I don’t know. I don’t really think so. Granted, I haven’t seen them — not because I don’t want to see them, but just because of the timing of it all and the accessibility of it all — but I’ve heard there are films like Kill and Project Wolf Hunting that seem to be doing quite OK in that department. From what little clips I’ve seen, they seem to be way bloodier.
I think there was a phase in my life — when I just started as a filmmaker, I did this little film with Kimo [Stamboel], my friend. It’s called Macabre, one of the first Indonesian slasher films. And I think at the time, our goal was like, Let’s be the goriest Indonesian flick ever. But weirdly, after The Night Comes for Us and everything, I just don’t feel like I was necessarily aiming for gore. I think it’s just that there needs to be a certain, weirdly enough, respect to violence and what it can do to the human body. I feel like we have to, in some way, hold ourselves accountable as filmmakers to show just how traumatizing violence can be.
The Night Comes for UsImage: Netflix
We live in a violent world. If you see what’s on the internet, what’s on formerly known as Twitter, X, just the accessibility of violent content — people from a lot of parts of America, for example, there’s a lot of people getting riled up and start beating each other up for nothing. Not that I’m saying America is the only violent place. I think the world generally has become a much more violent place, or much more exposed to the media. It’s weird when people see my films like, Holy shit, that’s so gory and violent! I’m like, Man, have you seen the real world? It’s so fucking crazy out there that I feel like sometimes my film is a PG version of it.
I’m glad you brought up the respect for violence, because one of the reasons I’m drawn to your approach to gore in action is because it feels more honest. If you’re not showing that level of destruction, you’re sanitizing the violence, and not being honest with the viewer about the actual effects of what’s happening.
That’s what I always try to do. I think the human body is weirdly fragile and resilient at the same time. If any of your bones have been broken, or if you’ve ever had a deep cut, it’s so weird how biology reacts to it all.
But beyond that, gore can also add stakes to a scene, it can add excitement, it can add humor. How do you balance those elements?
Well, that’s the thing. I think at a certain level, violence has to become funny. And I learned this from, or I copied this from, the great Takashi Miike. I think he’s always walking that line, realizing that the world is a crazy, fucked-up place, and one way you can deal with it is by using a lot of humor. If you watch something like Ichi the Killer, for example, that thing is dark, man. In Takashi Miike’s world, everything is fair and square. Women, men, we are both capable of violence, and we are both capable of being the victim. And I try to do that in my films.
The Shadow StraysImage: Netflix
One example I think is interesting is The Big 4, which has a tonal difference from your other movies.
Well, I think just because it’s gory doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be a feel-bad movie. I think that works quite well. Bad Boys can be a feel-good experience, and it has its moments of violence. And gore, especially if you’re talking about Bad Boys II — Michael Bay really pushes the limit to what kinetic violence can be. And I always feel like, you can make a less violent film and it becomes a much gloomier film, but you can also make a much more splattery and “head getting blown off by a shotgun” movie, and it still in the end has a heartwarming quality to it. Look at Shaun of the Dead, one of my favorites. And that thing is the ultimate feel-good film… depending on how you look at it.
You brought up Macabre earlier. Do you think your horror roots have an impact in terms of your perception of gore in action?
Kind of, yes. But having said that, I think it’s also childishness. Look, part of the beauty in horror is, you don’t necessarily need to be gory in terms of the approach to thrills. And as much as I would love to say, “Oh, I’m very well-versed in horror,” I think right now I’m only well-versed in a specific type of horror, which is one that is often violent. I think a lot of that comes from me growing up on Friday the 13th and Texas Chain Saw Massacre. Texas Chain Saw Massacre has such a huge impact on me in terms of how I look at violence, which is relentless.
I probably watch it maybe once or twice a year. It never ceases to amaze me. When you’re in your teens and you watch it, you think it’s the bloodiest film ever. And then when you watch it again after you’ve grown up, there’s hardly any blood in it. It is pure terror and it’s pure viscerality without actually showing you anything. And there lies the genius of Tobe Hooper making this film. So yeah, I’m just a little bit less disciplined than people like Tobe Hooper.
Tjahjanto and Ribero on the set of The Shadow StraysImage: Netflix
I loved what you had to say to some critics of The Shadow Strays about how filmmaking is an indulgent act, and I really appreciate that you see it that way, that making art is something that you do for yourself, and the hope is that other people are on board with you.
I think that’s the thing. I don’t mean that to attack a critique: I think when I saw the critique, I was like, Oh, well, I agree with a lot of it. I think honestly, I’m the kind of filmmaker who always goes for character first and plotting later. So that’s why my plots tend to be simplistic. And I do admit that I feel, well, most stories have been told. For me, it’s better to rely on the humanity of the characters and hope that the audience can hold onto that.
But when people say, “Hey, too much self-indulgence can be too much of a good thing,” I feel like, Well, no. Because here I am given enough freedom, thankfully, by Netflix to do almost everything that I want to do, and I think I have to sort of indulge in it rather than restrain myself, even though I am still restraining myself. If I went full indulgence, I think you’d see a lot of kinkier shit in it, and all these sick sort of violent images that I have. I always feel like, a movie-watching experience, you have to be able to give everything you’ve got to the audience. It’s not like a series, it’s not like The Boys, where you might fail in the first episode or second episode, but you can make it up in the eighth episode.
I just feel like, Well, I have this many hours, and I just want to give my audience the shit that they want. Look at RRR — that film is self-indulgent as fuck, and it’s one of the best films ever made in the world. I just feel there’s a time for self-restraint, but action is one of those genres where you just need to keep on pulling the trigger. Someday I’ll be a better writer and I’ll probably do better plotting, but for now, I’m still learning.
The Shadow StraysImage: Netflix
The depiction of blood and gore has changed over time, with new technology leading a lot of productions to move away from practical blood and squibs and over to VFX blood. What’s your philosophy on that?
It’s weird. I saw that there was a critique [of The Shadow Strays] that says, Oh, the use of CGI blood. Weirdly, Shadow Strays is like 85% practical blood. I think that it’s just because of the technology that I use, which is a lot of blood tubing and all that stuff. It does look excessive to the point that you think it’s actually CGI. I pride myself in taking a lot of time for The Shadow Strays. Things can get long in the shooting process, just because placing all those squibs and blood tubes takes time.
That’s what I always hear, is how much it expands the budget and your time just from cleaning up between takes.
Exactly. And costumes, and all those little things. Fortunately, making films in Indonesia, I can sort of afford it. So I actually indulge the fuck out of making all those things. Watching The Shadow Strays so many times through editing, I had the suspicion people are going to think this is actually CGI blood, even though it’s actually meticulous condom use and timed blood tubes and all that stuff. I’m a proponent of using as many squibs as possible. I know that’s cumbersome. But actors react better to it. They react, they feel the pain. They feel like, Oh shit, blood’s really spurting out of me. And that always helps.
There are some enhancements, just because sometimes the blood doesn’t redirect the way it should. But man, we were having fun. There were always gallons of blood behind the camera where we pump it up there. Especially for the first sequence — that whole Japanese sequence is me being inspired by Takeshi Kitano’s Zatoichi, but he was using CGI blood. I was thinking, I want to be like Kitano, when he just completely goes batshit with blood, but I’m going to try to use practical blood tubes. So that’s what we did, man.
The Shadow StraysImage: Netflix
You’ve mentioned Kitano, you’ve mentioned Miike, you’ve mentioned Tobe Hooper. Are there any other big figures for you when it comes to depicting violence on screen and their use of gore?
Martin Scorsese. When he’s shooting violence, it’s almost like he sometimes reverts back to being a young filmmaker. And I think he always has that spirit of being a young filmmaker. That’s the beauty of him. He can be 89 and he still shoots like a 35-year-old Sam Peckinpah on coke and LSD. One of the best violent scenes that I think is often overlooked is actually in The Departed, when Jack Nicholson and Ray Winstone got ambushed. Just like this fucking crash zoom lands and [there’s] fucking blood and [mimics the blood spraying everywhere] and all that shit. And I was like, Man, that’s fucking beautiful! I want to steal that shit. But I still don’t have enough skill to do it. Someday!
Do you have a favorite spot of gore in The Shadow Strays?
Aurora [Ribero], who plays 13, I always said to her, “You are skilled, but you are also clumsy. That’s the whole point of your character. You have a lot of endurance because you are young,” as she is truly in real life, “but you are often clumsy in your fighting. But once we hand you a sharp-edge weapon, you go berserk.” Whenever she’s given any weapon of sharp edge, be it a kitchen knife, be it a fucking screwdriver, she just goes crazy. I always loved that.
By the end of shooting, she became so good at it. It’s so fucking cool. She never had any martial arts experience, and whenever she does the stabbing, it’s almost like somebody who’s been living in prison for 30 years and is a master shanker. She’s so good. And there’s a whole sequence later in the film, when she fights a certain somebody and she just uses a screwdriver to go crazy — I think that’s one of my favorites, just because of how ridiculous it looked with the blood and everything, and just how well it makes sense, because at this point she doesn’t have anything to lose. She’s just going crazy, and I love that.
When the creators of Industry wrote the show’s third season, they didn’t know whether HBO would greenlight more episodes—so they made sure to throw everything they had into it. By the end of Industry’s season three finale, the stakes for the show’s beautiful fuckups—and for the bank itself—are fairly existential.
Yasmin (Marisa Abela) lands in the deepest water by the end of season three, literally and figuratively. While dealing with the scandalous aftermath of her father’s drowning, she finds herself locked in a love triangle between her lovelorn friend, Robert (Harry Lawtey), and Sir Henry Muck (Kit Harington), a man with enough money and power to both protect her from the world and provide her with life’s not-so-little luxuries. “Robert really does make Yasmin feel very safe in a way that definitely the other men in her life don’t,” Abela tells Still Watching. “He really sees her and loves her, whereas Henry or her father or Eric—I don’t think she feels that they really see her.”
On the latest episode of Still Watching, both Abela and Lawtey stopped by to talk about their onscreen chemistry and their offscreen friendship. (Listen or read below.)
Vanity Fair: Your characters both had a very emotionally intense season. When you read the season three scripts, were there any moments or revelations that surprised you?
Harry Lawtey: Yeah, it’s par for the course now with this show. Every page is a bit of a surprise, to be honest. But I agree. In this [season] especially, a lot of the arcs and journeys of these characters are very much reaching boiling point. That’s certainly the case for Robert. I remember saying to Mickey [Down] and Konrad [Kay] a while back that he’s someone who’s been wanting to cry for about five years now, and hasn’t felt able to show his feelings in that way. It feels like once the dam is broken, you can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube. It’s all on show now.
Marisa Abela: This was the first year that I felt it was really necessary to have a sit-down about what had happened, what was going to happen, where everything was heading. And that was very different to play, holding knowledge that was hers and no one else’s. And also, the relationship between Robert and Yasmin this season—it was the first time that it really, really mattered whether or not Yasmin knew what she wanted, and knew what she was getting into.
Your characters have been circling each other through the whole series, and Robert has been pining for Yasmin since the beginning. How do you see their relationship at this point?
Lawtey: The relationship has so much more substance and integrity than it did at the beginning. Robert’s attraction to Yasmin was always socioeconomically informed. He found the idea of a relationship with her aspirational…. They’re at a stage now, at the end of this season, where I think there’s very genuine love there. It doesn’t mean they can necessarily express themselves and share how they feel, but they know what’s going on. In the last two episodes, part of their journey is to try to get rid of all the nonsense.
After decades of development, Francis Ford Coppola’s self-financed epic Megalopolisis finally in theaters. Set in an alternate America, the bewildering film explores the power struggle between visionary Cesar Catilina (Adam Driver) and corrupt mayor Franklyn Cicero (Giancarlo Esposito). During its world premiere at the Cannes Film Festival, an actor in the crowd stepped up to the screen and addressed Catilina directly in a fourth wall-breaking press conference that stunned audiences. It’s a showstopping experience unseen in a Hollywood production since William Castle was pulling tricks on audiences in his low-budget horror films back in the 1950s and ’60s.
It would be a mistake to call this brief sequence a gimmick, though. It’s fully in line with Coppola’s late-period work that emphasizes technical innovation and privileges the theatrical experience. It’s not the first time either that Coppola attempts a kind of immersive experience. Nearly 15 years ago, the underseen and underrated Twixt, which featured just a few short sequences shot in 3D, aimed to reimagine technology as the landscape of innovation and possibility. Due to the film’s limited general release and the overall souring on 3D technology on a whole, it’s clear that Coppola needed to go bigger to replicate the magic of the big-screen experience he grew up with.
Not all showings of Megalopolis feature the alternatively named “immersive” or “enhanced” experience of having an actor in the room address the screen. (Or at least appear to — the dialogue is pre-recorded.) But in the few cinemas facilitating this iconic fourth-wall-breaking moment, the brief role of “live participant” has become sought after by cinephiles and actors alike. It’s not just a chance to be part of a Francis Ford Coppola film but also an opportunity to be a part of film history.
For Alex Rose, a publicist at Communications MingoTwo a press relations and promotional firm based in Montreal, it was simple as showing up for work one day. With zero acting ambitions and no extra cash to show for it, Rose landed one of the most iconic roles in film history, almost by accident. When they needed a man to play a journalist, he was the only guy in the office that morning. That’s how he stepped into the spotlight.
How did you end up with the gig? How long before the first “performance” did you learn you were doing it? I just received an email from Touchwood PR, which is a Toronto based PR company that we work with often because they don’t have a base in Quebec. Whenever they need something that’s Quebec specific, they’ll contact us. Honestly, in our office there are only women and I’m the only guy. One of the partners is a man, but he was on vacation for the period that Megalopolis was coming out. They said, it needs to be a man because the recording is a man’s voice, otherwise, anyone could do it. I had heard about it from Cannes and I was like, “For sure, I want to do it because it sounds like a unique experience.” I got the PDF and all the instructions, maybe a week before the first showing.
What was included in the PDF? It was pretty specific instructions. They were specifically for last Monday’s screening, which was the simultaneous event that had the Q&A from the New York Film Festival. It was all the timings and stuff were queued to that. I think everyone got that same PDF that said, like “at 8:00, there’s going to be the Q & A and the movie should start around 8:30.” For those who’ve seen what happens, it was pretty down to the second of everything that we had to do. You know, walk from your seat to the microphone and put your hand on the microphone when there’s a feedback sound and, mime along to the dialogue, take notes and then go back and sit down. It had the entire thing mapped out. There was also a link to a video. I think it might have just been a test video. It doesn’t look like there’s anyone in the theatre watching it. But, there was a video of someone doing it, so then I just based myself mostly on that.
Who was the person in the video? I have no idea who the person was, a guy with a beard and glasses. It’s filmed from quite far away, there is not much to see.
Have you ever wanted to be an actor? Are you being paid for this gig? I’m not an aspiring actor, I’m a publicist. I didn’t get paid specifically for this. I imagine it falls under the wages that I already get paid to do my job from 9 to 5 on Monday to Friday. I didn’t get any extra.
Do you get an IMDB credit? Is this a union gig? I hadn’t thought about that. I don’t think so, but it’s hard to say. I don’t know how many people across the world are [doing it]. As I understand it, in Montreal at least, there were three screenings with the interactive element to it. The last one is tonight when we’re recording this but I can’t make it tonight, so someone else is going to do it. I don’t even know who that is. I don’t think that I get any credit, although it would be cool.
What is your understanding of how other live participants in other cities are being chosen or recruited? Have you spoken to anybody else who’s done it? My understanding of it is entirely based on Twitter and people who are speculating on it. So I’m in the same position as everyone else. As I understand it, at Cannes, the actor spoke. It wasn’t a pre-recorded line, or at least that’s how it was reported. But, having done it a couple times now, I don’t know how that would work or be more effective, you know? Even though I’ve done it, I’m about as in the dark as anyone else about how everyone else.
You kind of fell into the role because there was really no one else in the office who could do it. But imagine there were more people. Do you think that there would have been an audition process? I doubt it. I think it would have just really been like, “Who wants to do this?” I imagine in some contexts there’s people who want to do it more than I wanted to do it. I don’t think I would have fought in the arena for this opportunity. I thought it was cool to get it, it was a fun thing. But, as an opportunity, I don’t know how much of an impact it makes.
On Monday, the first time, there was a lot of press in the audience, and so there were a lot of people that I knew who were watching the film. I was sitting all the way at the front, far away from everyone else. Most people didn’t even know that I was there. It’s only afterwards that people wrote to me, I surprised them. They were like, “Was that you at the screening?” And I was like, “Yeah, it was.” There was that element of surprise that I think would have been harder to manufacture if someone was really gung-ho about wanting it.
How does coordinating with the theater work? Especially last night, which was a more public screening. It was pretty simple. I just had to show up at the movie theater and find a staff member and say, “Hey, I need the manager to give me the microphone.” Then the manager gave me a microphone. They were pretty hands off about it. I think most people who work in the theater had no idea that there was even this thing in the movie. They weren’t briefed beforehand because most of the staff that I spoke to thought I was presenting the movie when I asked for a microphone.
Were you given any specific instructions, for example, on how to move or stand or gesticulate at all? Not at all. I did it differently both times because I didn’t really know how I was gonna do it. I was kind of in the dark. The second time I leaned into it a little more. It goes by pretty fast, the line is spoken quite quickly and then there’s a lot of reacting to Adam Driver that you need to do in the scene. That’s where you can improv, so to speak.
Are you also lip syncing? And did you memorize the line? I wrote down the lines on my pad because much of the line is the journalist quoting something back at Adam Driver that Adam Driver said. I wrote it down on my little pad that was like my prop. I looked at it when I had to quote it back. I learned the intro to it and then the rest of it I read off the pad because it had to look like I was quoting it to him.
The way you’re angled from the audience, I don’t think they can really see your mouth. I just had to go with the spirit of it. At least that’s the way it was at the Imax theater in Montreal. I don’t know that it’s like that everywhere else. A lot of the instructions in the video talk about crossing the stage but Imax has sort of like an orchestra pit and you can’t go all the way up to the front of the screen. I had to work around it a little bit. I don’t know if that’s the way for every theater but ours, at the Scotiabank Theater, the closest you could get to the screen is about 40 feet away on a sort of balcony. I had to improv that a little bit. The important part is just being in the right eyeline for the character. In the crowd, it’s pretty hard to see if the person speaking is actually speaking.
So that was part of the instructions that you’d have to have like a journalist pad? Exactly. That was part of the instructions.
Did you have to buy your own notepad? Yes.
Did you rehearse at all beforehand? Not really. I watched the video a few dozen times or so, just to get the rhythm right but I didn’t really rehearse.
How long is the video? A minute and a half. It shows you the scene right before, like maybe 30 seconds of the preceding scene before the fade to black, then the whole journalist thing and then it ends.
Did you create a backstory for your character? I did not.
Was the microphone connected to anything? Could you speak into it if you wanted to? It’s a real wireless mic, but it’s not connected to anything. It’s off.
Are you required to sit in the theater until that point in the film? And do you just leave after, or do you stay?
I don’t think you’re required to be there beforehand. Yesterday, at least, I left after my scene because I had just seen the movie. I didn’t really feel like watching the whole thing again. I kind of regretted not seeing the other half a second time but I had somewhere to go. Before I sat down and watched it, it seemed like a daunting task to watch Megalopolis twice in a week. But turns out it wasn’t that bad.
So you’ve seen the film twice then? One and a half times.
What do you think of the movie? It’s hard to say. It’s really ambitious, and it’s wild. I don’t think that it’s nearly as bad as some of the detractors are saying, even though I understand where they’re coming from, because it is like a huge swing. I don’t know if I would say I think it’s great or important or really successful at what it tries to do. But it tries so many things that it’s really hard not to get anything out of it. I got different things out of it the second time. It’s fairly dense and off-putting in some ways. There’s a lot of very broad performances and flowery dialogue and that is maybe off putting, especially if you think you’re going to see a blockbuster in Imax. It’s a gamble in being the world’s biggest, most like outlandish arthouse sci-fi whatevers and I think it succeeds mostly in that sense.
What do you think the live segment contributes to the film? The thing is, living it and being in it, I don’t know what effect it has on the actual audience, right? I can only see it from my perspective, which is I’m doing the thing. I’d be curious what other people took from it honestly, because for me, it’s really hard to zoom out and see it from any other perspective. It’s a daring idea. Ultimately, it’s a very small and somewhat inconsequential part of the movie. Once there’s no interactive segment, you’re not missing much. But when you see that, it’s a bit of a shock, even if it’s a silly William Castle type of stunt in a way. It’s very old-timey. It harkens back to the ’50s. I think it fits thematically in the movie, and especially in the tone.
Were you nervous at all? I was more nervous before I’d seen the movie. Once I was sitting down and I started to see what the whole thing turned out to be, I was a lot less nervous. I was just kind of like, “oh, okay, I’m part of this.” I’m just a very small part of this huge tapestry of excess and exuberance. I was more stressed out in the days leading up to it.
How did people react in last night’s screening? People kind of laughed. Both times there were, like, incredulous reactions. The movie provokes a lot of that reaction from audiences, sometimes intentional, sometimes maybe not as much. Although my feeling is that a lot of it is much more intentional than people seem to think it is. It was hard for me to gauge. I would say they seemed surprised. I don’t know if it was a good surprise or a bad surprise.
Fans of RaMell Ross’s Oscar-nominated 2018 documentary Hale County This Morning, This Evening might have felt some understandable trepidation about his decision to tackle a literary adaptation for his next feature. Ross’s new film, Nickel Boys, based on Colson Whitehead’s Pulitzer Prize-winning 2019 novel, opens the New York Film Festival tonight, after premiering at the Telluride Film Festival last month. How would Ross’s unique filmmaking style — built around montages of evocatively filmed, everyday details — translate into the high-stakes world of prestige studio movies? Surely, he’d have to water down his distinctive approach to deal with producers, actors, period atmosphere, narrative needs, dramatic arcs? Shockingly, he did not. If anything, Nickel Boys is an even bolder work than Hale County, utilizing point-of-view cameras and fusing them with the delicate lyricism of that earlier movie. It’s a staggering achievement — one that’s likely to be talked about for years to come.
Nickel Boys is your first feature-length picture in six years. You worked on Hale County This Morning, This Evening for quite a few years — shooting it over four and laying the groundwork for it in the years preceding. You make that movie, it premieres, it’s acclaimed, it comes out, wins awards, gets nominated for an Oscar. So, what happens the day after? After spending so many years focused on one project, how do you start a new one? Well, personally, it’s a depressing state, because somewhere in the making of Hale County, it started to feel revelatory. The process of documenting, of participating in these lives, and making these associations, it was almost like a drug — an insight drug, where I was constantly able to see the world anew, and see my people and my race in a way in which I hadn’t encountered yet, specifically in cinema. And it culminated with the release of the film. Then, it goes out in the world, and then I start to talk about it, and I inevitably end up saying the same things at some point. I was like, I can keep it fresh, of course. The work is poetry. I’ll just use poetry. And I just ran out of poetry! As everyone knows, whenever you achieve something, or get some material item, you’re the same person you were before you had it. You’re not going to wake up and be different. So, it was quite depressing, because I no longer had that drug.
But that’s just the personal side. Art-wise, it was the same because I was already making photos and writing.But about four and a half years ago, producers Dede Gardner and Jeremy Kleiner reached out to [Hale County producer] Joslyn Barnes to get in contact with me. As a person who works at my own pace, super slow, I don’t like to answer emails, and I was not interested in making a fiction film. I teach, I’m good, I’m really happy. But Dede made The Tree of Life! And I thought, If I’m going to meet someone, I’ll meet her. Literally the only producer I’ve ever met to make a film, and I get asked all the time. I was hesitant at first, and I expressed my concerns that if we moved into the project, I’d have creative freedom, and Dede and Jeremy were down.
Watching the film, it feels like such a natural outgrowth and continuation of your formal approach on Hale County. When you decided to do the book, did you have an idea in your head already of how you’d go about adapting it? I hate to sound precious, but once I read the book, I thought POV. I thought poetry. I thought archival. It came pretty fast, because the way I entered the book aligned so much with my aesthetic values. That time period is saturated with archival images that aren’t from our point of view. Generally speaking, they lack the poetry. They lack the interstitialness, the lyricism. How does that affect today’s quotidian? So, if you repopulate that to make a film that’s only poetic in this deep narrative that’s ready-made, it seemed to me not only a radical act, but an actual intervention into visual aesthetics.
It’s fascinating, because when the film first starts, and we get this fragmented, point-of-view style, it feels like maybe we’re watching an aesthetic overture. And we assume it’ll settle into something more conventional eventually. And it absolutely doesn’t! Which then forces us to think about how we process images, and narrative. It kind of feels like you have a friend that you meet and this friend, and you guys, you’re going to spend an hour together. And in the first 20 minutes they’re the exact same person you knew forever. And then all of a sudden, they start singing opera, and they start doing all these wild things. And they’re just giving you another world of experience with them, which you know because you know them, but also they’re sort of performing in a way that’s very different.
What were your conversations with Colson Whitehead like? I’d say they were non-existent. It was funny. He and Dede and Jeremy “chose me,” whatever that means. As we finished the script and were going into production, I wrote him an email and was like, “Hey, I always wanted to be a writer,” all this stuff. “Really appreciate it.” And he wrote back, “Thanks for your note. Good luck.” And that was it! At first, I was… not hurt, but I was like, “Oh, man.” Then I realized, “Wait, that’s the best. He’s actually giving me freedom to do my thing.” So, I’m not beholden to him in any way. I am, but not really.
Has he seen the movie? I think so. Apparently, he’s writing a book right now and he’s hard at work. I’m not complaining.
Almost everyone I’ve talked to about Nickel Boys thought the film was extraordinary, but I’ve spoken to a couple of people who said that they might have found the film more moving if it was more conventional. But that seems to me to be partly the point: When we see ostensibly objective, or conventional depictions of suffering, it can be moving, but there’s also a voyeuristic quality to it. When we’re embedded in the perspective of a person, we start to experience it differently. I’ve thought about these things so much. One thing in the Zeitgeist that people can understand — though it’s not the exact same thing — is double consciousness. It doesn’t give you the Black double consciousness, but it gives you a type of psychological double consciousness, where you’re both in it and on the outside of it. Traditional cinema is the person that’s walking by the homeless person on the street and being like, “Oh, my god, that’s so horrible.” But then being the homeless person on the street and seeing the people walk by is a different type of filmic experience.
In the past, when filmmakers have tried to shoot an entire film in point-of-view style, it’s tended to be a disaster. I think maybe the only other time it’s worked was a movie that’s about as different as one can imagine from Nickel Boys: Gaspar Noé’s Enter the Void. Oh, I love that film.
I think the problem is that all too often the point of view is combined with a certain fluidity, so suddenly the camera is moving all over the place, which can feel artificial and awkward. Watching your use of point of view here, as you meld it with the impressionistic, fragmented style of Hale County, I realized, Oh, this is how point of view could work. Because this is closer to how we actually experience the world. To give you a long answer, in the history of Southern photography — large format, eight-by-ten cameras — Walker Evans and William Christenberry are doing things in full focus. F22, you can see everything super-clear, and it’s all super-formal. Then you think about the way that Black musicians have changed the use of instruments just based on their needs and the soul. They’re not using the instruments formally and classically. I don’t use the eight-by-ten camera formally and classically. I use it to express something deep that has to do with my experience in the world. Not a picture of the world, but my experience of it.
My proof of concept for Nickel Boys was Hale County. I used three scenes, and I said, “It’s going to be exactly like this, which is a long lens and shallow focus.” Because you use the language of documentary and the language of cinema, because people think that shaky, moving camera is a person; that’s sort of been its code. So, to have a full-frame, 24mm frame, and you can see everything, we’re trying to replicate the purview of human vision. But like you said, human vision is attention-oriented. It’s not scaled. You can be looking at the entire coast of a place and one little fly can be in your face, and you don’t see anything else. If you can do that with the camera, then you can control someone’s attention in the frame, and not just give them what it is to see from the eyes.
Director RaMell Ross on the set of Nickel Boys. Photo: Kasimu Harris/MGM/Everett Collection
When I watch the film, and when I watch Hale County, it feels more like how my mind works than not. It’s not linear, it’s not straight. It’s not a normal film. It’s jumping time, and jumping textures, and jumping images, and points of view, and focal lengths, and sounds, but also it’s coherent. I think this is actually the way that the brain wants to work. It wants to let us have access to this wide range of associations. But because we’re so utilitarian-oriented, we’re on these one-track minds, reading things in specific ways. We’re just not allowed to let our unconscious flow into our consciousness and be within the image of the world, and the image of ourselves. Images are reductive intentionally for legibility — but they’re also complex, unconsciously, unknowingly. I think that photography, one, rewires our senses. And it’s also produced a language that has to catch up with our brains.
How did you build up and collect all these images initially? Some of them are from the book, obviously. But a lot of it is just life. That’s where it came from. Life. I just made it up. The beautiful thing about the story is that I can just think about everything I’ve seen. I’m Elwood. I had a childhood, and I love images. And so I can think in images quite well. The original script was images and camera movement. That was it. The hard part is shaping it. We had hundreds of images. And so many that we didn’t shoot that I’m really excited to put in something else, because they’re quite beautiful, and ambiguous, and innocent, and visceral.
I remember when we discussed Hale County a few years ago, you talked about how your still photography had prepared you for that film, in the way that you’d establish the frame and then have the patience to wait for something to happen — for a revelation to happen. When you’re working with something scripted, does that process of discovery change? It does completely. Especially when you have 33 days. And then you lose 5 days because of COVID. A person gets COVID and has to go, and you lose a scene. But we realized really early, Jomo Fray and I, that you have to miss things. You don’t want to hit every mark. If you hit the marks, then you’re producing it. But if you’re catching up to the world, then you’re in the world. Because the world is separate from your experience of engaging with it. We called it single-point perspective. The camera is situated in a way that it moves a bit like the human neck. So, just being responsive to the environment, but not trying to synchronize with it.
When we talk about the theories behind images, and we talk about things like representation, or challenging convention, it can sound like we’re talking about spinach, or broccoli — like it’s all just stuff that’s “good for you.” But what you create is also beautiful. One of the reasons why this approach got pushed through is because I’ve thought so much about my own work. I can talk about my work and my sensibility very clearly. So, it’s convincing! Before we made the script, I had a vision for the film. And I would’ve shot the thing on DSLRs, no problem, and would’ve been completely happy with it, because I’d have control. But I don’t have the technical expertise to make the image as beautiful as you saw it, the way that Jomo, and Nora Mendis, and all of the other production heads, did. Jomo comes in, and he’s a master. And then the concept is capable of developing: “Oh, we can shoot the film as if Elwood and Turner had their own Hale County cameras. We can make it feel like they’re documenting a time period they would not have been capable of documenting, with a poetry that didn’t exist. At 6K with a Sony VENICE on Rialto mode. Have it be a 4:3 aspect ratio.” I can really start to use all the resources from people who are masters of craft and artists in themselves.
Because of the point-of-view approach, your two leads, Ethan Herisse and Brandon Wilson, are often not onscreen, even when their characters are. How do you get them to inhabit their characters in a situation like that? Well, they came 80 percent ready, so it wasn’t like we needed to retrain them. They’ve been acting since they were kids, but they’re not superstars, and they don’t have long IMDB pages. We did have to set their expectations that they weren’t going to be on camera the entire time. But we still needed them to be present: There’s a lot of hand acting and voice acting, and a lot goes into that. When Elwood’s tying the things over his finger, it’s quite easy to record someone doing that in the real world. But then to have it feel right, that takes direction. They were so open and wanted to genuinely play that. And they were, I think, deeply enthusiastic to be part of a production that was predominantly Black. As a director, I would say I’m kind of fun. I’m not screaming at them. I don’t have rules. They can do anything that they want, and then we’ll go from there and start molding. We went through hundreds to find them, as I’m sure you can imagine. I’d never seen casting tapes directed at me to evaluate, right? That was new.
“Good day, Mr. Kubrick.” That famous video, right? So good! So good! I actually have a copy of that on my computer. Editor Nick Monsour introduced me to that hilarious tape.
If you look at any period film that involves Black people, actors are embodying characters from that time period. They have an accent, and they’re doing something of what they’ve seen the past is, or they’ve read the past is, or they know the director wants — something like that. So, we got tapes like that. Like a guy had a straw hat on, with a straw thing in his mouth. But this is what Hollywood encourages! Also, if we think about what masculinity looks like in Black culture right now, there were a lot of GQ looks, a lot of chiseled faces, the types of actors that could be in a superhero film and do really well. But it wasn’t someone who conveys the individuality and optimism that an Elwood has, or the cynicism that a Turner has.
When I saw Brandon, he was just leaning against the window — just the Brandon that you see, running Turner’s lines. He was so flexible and confident in himself. And I thought, Oh, man, that feels like that could be Turner. That’s Turner. Then Ethan, he was a version of that, but he had this optimism. It was early in the process, but I think that was the first time that, visually, the Nickel Boys narrative came alive — because he felt exactly like the Elwood in my head, with his joy of life.
Photo: Amazon MGM Studios
At a certain point in the film, a switch in perspective happens between Elwood and Turner. We’re watching the world through Elwood’s eyes, and then suddenly we’re seeing it through Turner’s eyes as well. How did you decide on this? That’s something that happened over the writing process with Joslyn. Once we decided that POV is not going to go to everyone — because if you’re going to give POV, then why does everyone not have POV? — then we thought, “Oh, what if we gave it to Turner? What if only Turner could see Elwood? What if only Elwood could see Turner?” The switch, the swap. It becomes more than a camera technique. It becomes a way in which these people are exchanging vitality.
Later, you start to incorporate what seem like archival elements. So, the texture changes again, and another formal element comes in. That was scripted the way it’s in there — because that smash of dramatic narrative, that beautiful cinema, with that archival image is a collapse that I think is just necessary and real. You feel that.
Again, it seems like another way in which we experience the story even as we start to reflect on how we experience stories. Which is the most human thing ever! We have a whisper in our head, we watch ourselves. Interestingly, I’ve found one place where you can get that duality is the audiobook. Because you’re not using your eyes in that way. You can have that visual input, and the audio input, and the input of the world and have that complex experience. I do this in my class, I call them “Order of Time Walks.” Do you know Carlo Rovelli’s Order of Time? It’s read by Benedict Cumberbatch. So, you have Benedict Cumberbatch’s smooth silky voice, while Carlo Rovelli is talking about what time means and doesn’t mean, in profound yet accessible language, and you’re out in the world and seeing things move. It’s mind blowing. It changes your relationship to time and space, because you’re in the world experiencing what he’s talking about.
Tell me about your project Return to Origin, for which, as I understand, you shipped yourself from Rhode Island to Alabama? Basically, I shipped myself from Rhode Island to Alabama as some sort of homage to Henry Box Brown. But more to put myself in a really precarious situation, to approximate what it felt like to be terrified in that way. But I was super-safe. No one could get in the box. I could get out. Only two people knew I was in there. But the journey itself was so visceral. The experience gave me something about what’s at risk as an artist trying to say things that are meaningful — if that leap of logic is possible.
Our first idea was FedEx. Did research with my studio manager for a year. We were tracing trucks, we’re talking to FedEx. Turns out, with something that big, if they’re going to go cross-country, you’re going to be put into a warehouse for two or three days. I’m like, “Oh, do they have good airflow in there?” They’re like, “Why do you care about airflow?” I’m like, “Oh, just wondering.” So, way too dangerous. Also, they’re putting forks through the boxes sometimes if they fall. And we need an oxygen tank. So, then we decided, “All right, got to do open air goose-neck trailer, have air flow, have it strapped down. And we’ll just use U-ship.” That thing where you can just have a random person who has a CLL or one of those licenses drive you. So we built the box out of Outlander railroad ties. Get my food, get everything organized, have someone set to come pick me up, get ready to do it. The person never shows up the first time, which no one knows. So, then we bail on that one. And then two months later we fully accomplished it. Basically, I just lived in this box for three days. Should have only been one and a half, because we were supposed to go straight there — but the driver had overdriven his hours, so he stopped at a rest stop in Pennsylvania for 15 hours. Obviously, he didn’t know I was in there, because we didn’t tell them. I’m just sitting there, like, “Why aren’t we moving? This is crazy.” But also, I filmed it. I had two GoPros, 100 batteries, an alarm set. Every hour I changed the battery. I have 59 straight hours of the entire journey that I’m going to make into a 59-hour film. But the coolest part about that is I started this project that I’ve wanted to start for a while called the Black Dictionary, which is me writing the word “black” before every word in the dictionary that I had as a child, to speak to the absurdity of someone being called Black, and also to get through it, if that’s even possible. So, on the inside is all text from the Black Dictionary.
This also was the inspiration behind the boxcar scene in Nickel Boys. My studio manager and I built that, and then after we finished production, we drove cross-country and filmed me in it. And then we put it in the film. I imagined it because I was in a box going cross-country already, so I wanted to put Turner in a boxcar. I thought, I’ve never seen a time-lapse out of a boxcar. How amazing would that be?
It’s not much of a stretch to say that legendary stunt performer and action director J.J. Perry helped shape most of the significant action movies and franchises that have come out this century. He’s worked in the biggest modern movie universes imaginable — Marvel, DC, Avatar, Fast and Furious, John Wick. He designed the action on smaller beloved genre projects like Warrior and Undisputed II: Last Man Standing, and even provided strong action beats in comedies like Spy and Murder Mystery 2.
Perry finally got his chance at directing a feature in 2022: the breezy throwback vampire action-comedy Day Shift, starring Jamie Foxx. Two years later, he’s back with his sophomore effort: the delightful action rom-com The Killer’s Game, starring Dave Bautista and a legion of Perry’s friends and collaborators from the action world.
The movie follows Joe Flood (Bautista), a highly capable hitman with a big crush on ballet dancer Maize (Sofia Boutella). While their relationship is still budding, Joe learns he has a terminal illness, and puts out a hit on himself to end his suffering quickly and hopefully get an insurance payout for his new love. But surprise! His doctor gave him the wrong diagnosis, and he’s actually perfectly healthy. With a new resolve to live, Joe has to fight off a swarm of deadly assassins and hold onto his vision of his future.
Joining Bautista and Boutella are Ben Kingsley as Bautista’s handler Zvi, Pom Klementieff as a rival handler, and Terry Crews, Scott Adkins, Marko Zaror, Lee Hoon, Shaina West, Lucy Cork, and WWE wrestler Drew McIntyre as some of the assassins. For action fans, that list is a who’s who of people who kick ass. Combine that with Perry’s unique eye for action design, and you have one of the most enjoyable movies of the fall.
The narrative setup allows for lots of room for expression from Perry, both in the characters and the action design. Zaror’s character, Botas, is a particular standout, a flamenco dancer who fights with spurs on his boots and headphones in his ears. So are Adkins and McIntyre, who play a pair of nearly unintelligible Scottish brothers (subtitles and all). There are motorcycle fights, barroom brawls, tactical shootouts, intense martial arts action, and everything in between. At its best, The Killer’s Game feels like an action anthology series, following the protagonist as he fights his way through the genre, with Joe and Maize’s romance providing a heart at the center of it all.
Polygon spoke with Perry about his approach to the movie’s unique premise, why wrestlers (and Bautista in particular) make such great movie stars, his inspirations for the wacky cast of characters, and his love for matching old-school aesthetics with new-school technology.
This interview has been edited for concision and clarity.
Polygon: Where did this project start for you?
J.J. Perry: Like 12 years ago, I got a script called The Killer’s Game, and they were looking for a stunt coordinator. Somehow that went away. And then three years ago, I got the script again, and they were looking for a second unit director. I was finishing up my first movie, Day Shift, and I invited [producer] Andrew Lazar to see my director’s cut while we were in the editing room. He was like, “Dude, I want you to direct [The Killer’s Game].” And that’s how it all kind of came to me.
Photo: Csaba Aknay/Lionsgate
Getting the movie was a big win, but getting Dave Bautista to star in it was like winning the lottery for me. It all just kind of fell together after that.
I imagine some of it is his star power and what he brings to the screen, but also, having someone like him attached to the project has to help give it more visibility.
I met Dave in the parking lot of 87eleven [Action Design] when I was prepping John Wick 2 and we were training Keanu [Reeves]. He came to meet Chad [Stahelski], and I chased him out in the parking lot and was like, “Dude, I’m a big fan.”
I’ve worked with a lot of pro wrestlers over the years. As a stuntman, I worked with Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, just a host of them. But I always felt Dave was special. He has something else. When he came aboard, we had a chat, and I think I won him over by telling him that I’m not setting out to make an action movie. I’m setting out to make a love story.
For me, coming from the action world, I wasn’t that concerned with the action. I can close my eyes and throw the ball and hit it with action. It’s my neighborhood. I know where I’m going. I need to get the love story and the characters right in this movie, and the comedy. I need to hit that. Everyone’s going to expect the action to be good. I’m not really worried about that part, because I know it like the back of my hand, and I’ve got an amazing action team, and all we do is produce stunt biz constantly.
Created with FCPX Image ExporterImage: Lionsgate
But getting the story right is, I think, what got Dave, and Dave brought Sofia [Boutella]. I was scared shitless of the Maize character. I was like OK, who am I gonna get, a badass actress that can dance, that has chemistry with Dave? And he said, “Oh, I got this friend that I did Hotel Artemis with.”
If you ask an actress in Hollywood if they can dance, they’ll all say, “Yeah, I can dance.” But I don’t mean tap dance in the fourth grade. I’m talking about really being about to dance. Sofia, before she became an actress, she was a dancer, and she’s an amazing actress. Dave also brought with him Terry Crews, which was super cool. We had a hard time casting the Lovedahl role. I’d worked with Terry on Expendables 3. I love him, but Dave, he’s dear friends with him. He called him, and boom, Terry Crews is on a plane.
I got on the phone and called all my friends — Scott Adkins, Marko Zaror, Pom Klementieff, Daniel Bernhardt, Lucy Cork, Shaina West. If you’re going somewhere to get into a damn street fight, what do you do? You call your homeboys and your homegirls to come help you. When you stack your deck full of aces, all you’re holding is aces.
What is it about working with wrestlers in action roles that you like, and how has Dave Bautista distinguished himself there to you?
If you know the movie business, more movie stars have come from WWE than anywhere else. More than football, more than MMA. There’s a reason. They are live-show performers. They’re acting to the guys in the nosebleeds. So it has to be big, and they have to be able to retain the choreography. It is a breeding ground for action stars.
I think that Dave, on the acting level, has really surpassed any and all expectations for me. I know him, and it’s unfair, because he’s a great actor, he’s super talented, he’s super intelligent, he’s super kind, he’s generous. I want to be him so bad it makes my damn teeth hurt. For me, it was a career high to get to do this with him. I just finished another one with him too, [a sci-fi comedy] called Afterburn. We’re cutting it right now.
You mentioned Day Shift earlier, which has a very different approach to action than this one. It’s vampire-centric, you’ve got the contortionist gymnastics stuff going on. The Killer’s Game is a different playground. What was most exciting to you about that as an action director?
Created with FCPX Image ExporterImage: Lionsgate
Because I direct so much action as a second unit director, it’s about the characters. How do I make the characters different, and create problems for my protagonist, and show how he solves them? And it’s also the set-pieces. Like, the motorcycle fight. We were supposed to do that in a construction site. Do you know why we shot it inside? Because when you film in Budapest in July, you only have four hours of darkness. So I didn’t have the time I needed to shoot for 10 hours straight.
We shot all of that motorcycle business in two days. I didn’t have a lot of time, so I needed to focus on my strengths. But that venue created a lot of opportunities for the motorcycles to do stuff that you might not have seen before. That’s your job, too, is not to regurgitate things you’ve seen. So when I’m directing action movies, I don’t watch action movies. I watch comedies and horror movies.
One of the things I enjoyed most about The Killer’s Game is how the premise allows you to use a lot of different action tools. You get to cycle through action subgenres throughout the movie. When you read the script, did that stand out to you, or did that come naturally in the process?
The movie that I read 10 or 12 years ago and the one I read three years ago are quite a bit different. When we decided I’m directing the movie, I went out and got [screenwriter] James Coyne, who’s a friend of mine, and we rewrote. We put in the Goyang character, we put in the Botas character, we put in the party girls, we put in the unintelligible Scottish guys.
We took some characters out, because that script had been around so long, you’d see people had taken their characters and put them in other movies. So I put my own DNA in it. We wrote those things with Scott Adkins in mind, with Marko Zaror in mind, with Lucy Cork and Shaina West in mind.
Created with FCPX Image ExporterImage: Lionsgate
With Botas — when I was a young guy, I was competing in taekwondo a lot. There was a guy in my gym that, when he put on his Walkman, if you were sparring with him, he would beat the pants off of you, because he was so into the heavy metal. But when he had the Walkman off, you could walk all over him. I was like, I need to do that. Marko, he’s a special character. We almost lost that character, too. We didn’t have a lot of money.
[With the Mackenzie brothers], I worked in Scotland on F9. We locked up Edinburgh, and I couldn’t understand a word of what my crew were saying, but it was fun, and they laughed when I talked. We had a great time. Every other word was the C word. I was like. Whoa, you guys can just say that? And then the party girls… I spent most of my youth researching those girls.
With the Mackenzie brothers, there’s a bit of a commonality between Day Shift and this movie. Is there always going to be room in your movies for Scott Adkins to play half of a brother duo with a new accent?
Created with FCPX Image ExporterImage: Lionsgate
I love Scott. I’m going to cast him in everything. I’ll cast Marko and Daniel in everything. When you’re going to go somewhere and do something hard, you’re going to bring your friends. They all could be their own movie stars. They’re all action-movie stars, but they could be movie stars. I will always offer that to Scott, but hopefully I can offer him something bigger next time.
The movie has a very comic book-y narrative, even though the source material isn’t a comic book. You have split panels, wipes, match cuts — there’s a lot of playfulness in the movie. How did you approach marrying the style to the narrative?
After Day Shift, I wanted something that looked a bit different, and I watched the old Thomas Crown Affair, and I watched some Guy Ritchie. So some of the split screens and some of the transitions from scene to scene [were inspired by those]. I just wanted it to feel different. We didn’t have a lot of time. It wasn’t a big budget. We shot it in 42 days. It was what it was, but we made a meal of it.
Created with FCPX Image ExporterImage: Lionsgate
I didn’t want it to seem like a standard action movie. There’s some dolly zooms, 360 dolly shots, a lot of Trinity shots where we’re wrapping around. I wanted to take a lot of liberties with the camera, but I also wanted to take a lot of liberties with the edit and the pacing. I did Day Shift, and I’m super proud of that movie. But it was very scene to scene to scene. I wanted to do something that was a little more stylized.
When we talked about Day Shift way back, we talked about how some of the movie harkens back to an ’80s or ’90s style of action movie. You like to mix older aesthetics with new-school tech. What appeals to you about that?
I learned how to do this job when I got out of the Army in the ’90s, when I became a stuntman. And back then, you couldn’t say “Let’s just fix it in post.” Somebody had to figure out how to do it — you couldn’t just lean on visual effects. There wasn’t CGI, there was no YouTube for a tutorial, there was none of that. So you had to be a clever filmmaker. And I got to work with those guys and really pay attention as a stunt coordinator and second unit director.
These stuntmen and women are next-level. Parkour champion, world drifting champion, UFC fighter, just next-level. But they’re all young men and women that I don’t fucking understand a word of what they’re saying. And I love them, and they love me, and I’ve learned so much from them, but I think they learn from me, too. That mix for me has always been super interesting.
Photo: Csaba Aknay/Lionsgate
I’m stuck in the middle of Gen X, and I still listen to Mötley Crüe, but at the same time, I work with all these tech-savvy young bucks and young women that are amazing. You saw it in Day Shift with Dave [Franco] and Jamie [Foxx]’s characters, and it’s here in The Killer’s Game. That’s something that I really love. It’s a part of my life that I really love and laugh at, and it’s something that I wanted to bring across to the audience.
I was thinking that is something that the protagonists of The Killer’s Game and Day Shift have in common: They’re each hyper-proficient at a violent job, but they’re also kind of clueless in their life outside of the job. Is that a character trait you’re attracted to in stories?
[Points at self.] It’s kind of my story. I’m 57, but I’m a 15-year-old trapped in a 57-year-old’s body. I’ve been in a business where we crash cars and fight and shoot things and fall off a building. We don’t really have to grow up. You just have to be careful. You’re doing a bunch of kids’ stuff. And I urge people: Don’t grow up. It’s way overrated. Don’t do it. You’re not going to dig it. You’re going to want to go back. My wife and I, we’ve got a 12-year-old, and she’s going to grow up way sooner than I will.
